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Why do we have Short bows?

Discussion in 'Release 13 Feedback' started by KuBaTRiZeS, Dec 23, 2014.

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  1. KuBaTRiZeS

    KuBaTRiZeS Avatar

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    Yesterday i ended bowless and unwilling to pay 100 gold to add 20 durability to my elven bow i decided i'll give a try to short bows (the only ones we could craft at the moment).

    Even when in the Character stats they looked promising, their damage stat didn't lie; with them i did half the damage i was doing with an elven bow, without any significant improvement on any other field. My point is, if we have two kinds of bows but one are far better than the other, why don't have just one kind? either that or making short bows interesting in some way, so they may regarded as an option.
     
  2. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    Well, Elven bows are only going to be available for those backing the stretch goal; I'm sure elves in the wild will have some sort of longbow instead by the time we release. With how fast durability is lost tho, I'm not sure who will be using them.

    I'm not sure where they want to go with making all equipment useful; currently, that just is not the case. Short bows traditionally are usable from horseback, while longbows are limited to infantry, but without mounts that distinction is not great. I'm sure longbows will be the preferred option, once they are craftable, but unless short bows are significantly cheaper I can't see them being widely used.
     
  3. napkinthief

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    Most add-on and stretch goal items are tiered 5 on a scale of 1-6.

    So the elven bow is tiered a lvl 5 item. The short bow is tiered most likely lvl 1.

    A new non-donating character, would most likely find a short bow early on. Then stumble onto a tier 2 or 3 bow. Eventually craft higher level bow, and in endgame, find a tier 6 bow on some legendary elven monster.

    Your elven bow has skipped you to a high level weapon.
     
  4. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    I'm not sure where this tier 1-6 data is coming from. I've never heard that items were tiered, let alone that they were tiered 1-6.

    But concerning the OP....Why do we have the ability to make bad weapons that no one will want to use because they're bad? I don't know, that's an excellent question.

    Right now, none of the weapons or armor really make any sense. You can't use a dagger for anything useful, yet there are multiple kinds of daggers. You can't really use leather or cloth armor for anything useful, yet there's an entire arm of a skill tree for leather armor and nothing for cloth armor.

    I think we're just in a situation where the devs made assets, are testing that the assets "work" as intended, and they haven't really balanced anything yet.

    That said, at this point I do have an expectation that Melee vs. Archer vs. Mage would have a little more balance than it currently does. But I'm far less concerned that bows are balanced for usefulness at this stage of development.
     
  5. Dirk Hammerstrike

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    Due to cost or difficulty crafting, or base stats needed to use... the "bad" weapons might be the only things available to a low level avatar.
     
  6. Drocis the Devious

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    Yes, of course. But is it reasonable to assume that there will be a healthy demand for these items? I don't think there is. I'd much rather see items have different uses, not large gaps between good and bad.

    In real life, a fishing pole is a fishing pole. You can pay all kinds of money for "better ones" but at the end of the day it's just a stick with a hook on the end of it. Someone with a "tier 6" fishing pole doesn't stand a better chance of catching a bass any more than a guy with a string tied to a tree branch. Just like someone with a steak knife can kill someone just as well as someone with a jewel encrusted longsword.
     
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  7. Dirk Hammerstrike

    Dirk Hammerstrike Avatar

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    Well there I'd mostly agree. Catching a regular fish with a regular pole vs catching a regular fish with an S-class pole you wouldn't see much (if any) difference. But what about catching a very large fish? Or some S-class fish attracted to the materials the special pole is made of?

    Depending on how the economy is presented (item rarity), and character progression works, I'd imagine we'll see a healthy demand for beginner items when everyone is a beginner! And hopefully we'll get a healthy flow of new avatars in the world interested in purchasing such weapons over the life of the game. If every new avatar is practically issued a +6 bow-of-badass out the starting gate then yes, the -1 short-bow-of-why-bother will just take up inventory space.

    Actually this gives some possibility of still implementing skills based experience outside the existing character leveling paradigm. Imagine gaining experience of a type of weapon or tool... And being told "you can't use this well", or "this doesn't feel right in your hands but you are still able to wield it with some difficulty" as feedback when you try to use a weapon / tool which exceeds your current experience. The more you use that tool (or lesser versions) you eventually gain the ability to use the higher class weapon / tool to their full potential.
     
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  8. Drocis the Devious

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    Right, you need the right tool for the job. But that's kind of my point, people don't make tools that are useless, they serve a purpose. So the game shouldn't make tools that are useless either.

    If I need a hammer I use a hammer. There's not some guy next to me using a vorpal hammer that hammers stuff better than my hammer. I realize there are outliers (even with hammers) but seriously, tools should do what tools should do. If there's a difference between them it should be in DURABILITY or additional functions that go beyond what a normal tool would do. So maybe you have a hammer that also has a flash light on it for some reason.

    Damage shouldn't come from items. It should come from players.
     
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  9. Dirk Hammerstrike

    Dirk Hammerstrike Avatar

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    ...Or create higher quality or quantity of the result. Maybe the vorpal hammer is magical and helps the user aim better, swing faster, etc... yes you can get by with a hammer, but you'd get better results with the vorpal. If you can't find or afford a vorpal of course you buy the regular hammer. To suggest that the result of using one vs the other should be the same... I don't get.


    That is a design decision. Personally I think that player's stats and skill should be part of the equation.

    And ideally it would be:
    Player's base damage lvl (regular xp based) + xp with weapon type + xp with THAT weapon + xp fighting that type of monster + weapon stats.
     
  10. Drocis the Devious

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    It's simple. If you have 1000 swords and only one kind is "the best" then you now need that sword to compete. If all 1000 do the same same damage as another one, but have a variety of other "features" you don't need "the best" to compete in pvp or pve, the differences become style preferences.

    If one sword provides a "light source" and another sword provides the ability to "talk to the Oracle", that's fine. But if one sword gives you +25 damage over the other one, what's the the point of buying the lesser one? Sure, if you're new or poor you'll do it because you have to. But it's not a very good way to try to create a balanced environment.


    I agree with this.
     
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  11. Dirk Hammerstrike

    Dirk Hammerstrike Avatar

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    Ah I have a PVE and crafting bias. For PVP yes I would think some balance would be needed. Perhaps for every positive there could be a negative associated. Sure it does +25 dmg but costs focus to use... or reduces defense. Or maybe it's bonuses just don't work against avatars ( I recall someone was working that angle already..).

    Coming back to your comment though... if there are 1000 types of swords, some are better (damage wise), but also more expensive, rare, and have negative side effects... it won't be the sword everyone has.

    I've seen your threads about DPS and PVP balance issues and I'd tend to agree it needs to be more than a battle for highest DPS. But making sure everyone's sword does the same dmg is I think not the way to bring variety / strategy to the game.
     
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  12. Drocis the Devious

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    I appreciate your point of view. But consider this, why or how does damage ever make a game more or less strategic? People are obsessed with damage modifiers, but the reality is that damage is just damage, it's not special. Much like if you make one build required to create the most DPS, you'll also need the item that does the most DPS. It's just not a good way to balance anything, pvp or pve.
     
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  13. Lord Dreamo

    Lord Dreamo Avatar

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    People have gotten so used to the idea of a gear treadmill over the years they don't even realize how silly it is anymore.
     
  14. KuBaTRiZeS

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    I'd be happy if short bows had a higher attack speed, even if its DPS is lower than Long bows. Shooting more is sometimes better than shooting harder, but shooting softer per se is just silly.

    I really expect not to make tiered items, not in the sense that i'll have to pass through tier 1 items then tier 2 then settle in tier 3 after i find a party of mates to get a tier 4, even if i can do that in the first hour of play. Each item should be different and have a different purpose but with an overall balance, to make them tools that fits certain situations or playstyles. After we have a nice set of standard items we may discuss about rare items that allow the wielder to have a slight advantage over the ones who have the standard items, or how to improve them through enchantments and stuff... but having two items with the same availability, and one being more powerful than the other is unreasonable.

    I'd bet that player stats (and level) are part of the damage equation at the moment, but only as a multiplier for the base damage displayed in the weapon. It fits me hitting for half the damage i make with long bows while fighting with short bows, which displays more or less half the base damage of a long bow.
     
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  15. napkinthief

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    Sorry didn't mean this was an actual mechanic in-game, but just as an idea to plot why an elven bow is that much better than a short bow. I plotted short bow as 1, being a cheap, relatively easy to craft. Elven bow as 5, since its probably going to be matched with some of the best crafted items, but there will be rare loot that would be better...plotting the 6. Of course this all just based off whats in-game right now. After a few episodes there may be even better gear (the treadmill) or similar gear with different bonuses/slugs.
     
  16. Themo Lock

    Themo Lock Avatar

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    people have listed that a few times as a direct quote from Richard in relation to the addon tools of prosperity, i cannot find it.. i was told it was during a telethon.
     
  17. Owain

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    With respect to short bow vs long bow, historically, I think short bows were quicker to draw and fire, but propelled an arrow for a shorter distance and at a lower velocity, resulting in less damage. This could be replicated in the SotA combat system.
     
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  18. ThurisazSheol

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    from what i've been seeing that seems to be the goal of having them in the first place.

    yes, short bows are usually used while mounted - but that isn't their sole purpose. one could argue the merits of one system vs another for an archery corps but i certainly will not get into those utterly pointless semantic debates again.

    needless to say, i think guild wars 2 handled longbows vs shortbows fairly well.
    shortbows were much faster, but did far less damage, and had a better bleed effect, with jsut the autoattack, while skills were mostly designed to reduce the ability of the mobs to remain mobile, including a "sustained fire targeted AOE", and a self-knockback, and simply did more damage the closer the mob was.
    longbows, were much slower, but did far more damage, and had a better effect on armored enemies than shortbows, their skills also had decent damaging skills including a very useful knockback and cripple, and did more damage the closer to max range the mobs were.
     
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