Who Killed Role-Playing in MMOs?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Ravicus Domdred, Jan 18, 2015.

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  1. Umbrae

    Umbrae Avatar

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    Just finding this post. I agree that NWN was the only place I saw RPing in so far as MMOs. NWN had an amazing community and where I learned to enjoy PVP. It has been the bar I have set for most multiplier experiences, and has been greatly lacking.

    Hope everyone is members of the SOTA RPers. We are trying to build the same sort of rp experiences NWN delivered. Maybe even with some sort of DM control and structure. :)
     
  2. Heradite

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    For that particular game? If they can't use the mouse to aim the sword and then use mouse movements to slash the sword then it doesn't make them "less" but it probably does mean that the game isn't for them-there's nothing wrong with that. ;)

    If I thought it was the end be all of roleplay I wouldn't be investing money in SOTA. It's just a game I'd like to see someday and I do think it doesn't lose it's status as an RP game because of that.

    After all, RP should be more than just the combat system. The MMORPG game I talked about would also ideally have ways to finish quests without combat. For instance, maybe instead of stabbing a bad guy you could sneak poison into his drink-or kidnap his lover to blackmail him into leaving town forever. To me, really, RP is about choice and having the freedom to chose. It could be engrained within the gameplay or it could be participated by the community-or both. It's about the story you experience.

    So the game I talked about which would do away with levels/attributes making everyone as good as their actual skill? I might be removing the ability to "grow" that character (essential in a single-player RPG but worthless in an MMORPG where most people only care about endgame) but in doing so, you can create a lot more opportunity for any player from the onset. And it's in these opportunities (or adventures) where the character is able to distinguish himself in some way.
     
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  3. Duke William of Serenite

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    I signed up :) . Good post .
     
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  4. Duke William of Serenite

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    Don't miss this tonight.

    In New Britannia, PaxLair citizens will host an informal celebration at its Grand Theater in PaxLair, Valemark on Tuesday, January 20, 2015 at 7 PM US Central Time. People may learn more about PaxLair's rich history and what PaxLair may be like in New Britannia. Everyone is welcome, and you may help sing Winfield's Fish Song.
     
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  5. Duke William of Serenite

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    I love it , that would be cool..

    HARR YE MATES!!
     
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  6. Spoon

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    Nah kids these days - nothing changes except the old complaining about the new.

    I don't think RP is even remotely dead.
    I think that RP is more alive now than it ever was, and that it is just that each new generation becomes old and doesn't recognize the value of the new.

    Every generation since the 70s have their own view on what RP means and what it gives us and as time progress every generation has then disdain for what RP is to the next, its really sad.

    For instance, I started with RPGs way back when I was 8, now we couldn't understand most of it (not a native english speaker) but we loved it all the same:
    [​IMG]
    Yes, I'm that old.
    I've played RP in four decades now, and if people think that RP was better back in the old days I'd disagree.

    For instance the original D&D and all of its iterations, including the current, isn't really RP friendly. That is because the system is built like a wargame.
    And if anyone has had the fortune to play Gary and Dave, although they are great personalities and a huge kudos and thanks to what they did. But they ain't good RPrs.

    So what people believe is the current problem in games nowadays with grinding, and griefing, and gear, and skill inflation, and min/maxing, and invincible fatigue etc. Well none of that is anything new. In fact that is how all of this started. Anything you can come up with that you think is bad with modern MMO RP, I could give a pen & paper equivalent, and usually a lot worse than what one has to go through today.
    I've been in LARPs as well, and could give equivalents there. I've been in Impro, and could give equivalents there.

    But we all loved it all the same. Because it was "sandbox". You could go outside the mold and come up with whatever you wanted and add that on to the game system itself. And that is where the magic of RP is.
    RP isn't the system, its what happens outside the system, as long as you are free to do that. That is where a good GM versus a bad GM comes in. Or a good vs bad MMO/game system. RP isn't about killing the dragon. Its about the story before, during, after and inbetween.

    Nowadays RP can be seen everywhere, and in so many forms and on so many levels, with so many different tools. I see it all over the place, but people thinks that it has to live up to some criteria or some sofistication.
    I'm sorry, but it didn't at the starting point and not at any point since.

    Usually what happens is like all good memories, the ones that we remember fondly from our glory days are filtered out, from a dredge of bad ones which people don't care for nor remember.

    It is like when people say that they don't make good movies or good music anymore...
    Then I'm sorry, it isn't music that changed, it isn't movies that changed, it isn't RP that changed.
    It is you.
     
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  7. redfish

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    Spoon,

    Sometimes mediums have a golden age. I study a lot of art history. There are periods where there are a lot of brilliant painters at once, and then the next generation, which might be doing some interesting things in some regards, as a whole is comparatively boring. Same thing in literature, philosophy, and everything else people do. Probably music, movies, and games even.

    On the one hand, you're say that role-playing isn't the system, but then you acknowledge that you need a good GM versus a bad GM, or a good system versus a bad system. But part of the complaint is that the systems that have been created and are popular as 'role-playing games' are bad systems as far as role-playing is concerned and harm the experience. And, that a lot of people seem not to want systems that are favorable to good role-playing experiences.

    Also, you're saying that killing the dragon isn't role-playing, that the story is. But I'm sure you agree its not the story that the GM gives you, its the players and the GM making the story together -- otherwise might as well read a book. Killing a dragon is part of that story. I might miss my hit on the dragon, get injured, and have no way to heal myself, being left in a life threatening situation, and want try to hide. That's an exciting event. But a game system can be oriented towards allowing those stories to unfold, or it can be oriented in a completely different manner.
     
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  8. Joviex

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    I think that is inherent to human growth. The new generation LOVES (internally) what the previous one(s) did, but have so much angst to break free and create their own voice, that they literally become stagnant.

    [​IMG]

    Sure, there are some exceptions, a few writers here, a few artists there, but that zeitgeist moment is past, and it will take some time to have another true, epiphany breakthrough, creating something new and different than all that came before.

    A lot of times there is some catalyst that is required. Much like when the photo camera appeared and all the sudden you have tons of artists who can no longer make their living doing portrait work, nor have to be constrained to "realistic" art and **BAM** Impressionism is born.

    Given the level of technological innovation and invention around us almost daily, I would say we are in a zeitgeist moment, but not one we recognize because the medium is so young, and it actually covers no single area (art, music, writing, etc...).

    The unfortunate, and ironic side, as it pertains to (C)RPGs.... the tech platform is "there" but requires a lot of investment to make an "empty" world of sorts. It is seemingly less about the sandbox, and more about the toys IN the sandbox that modern CRPG require.
     
  9. redfish

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    Joviex,

    I wouldn't say the birth of Impressionism is that simple. The earlier generation of artists was both using photographs as reference material and also doing impressionistic-type paintings in sort of rough studies they made in preparation for their final work. Portraiture also didn't die. But in the later half 19th century, there were revolutions in everything else too: not just art, but literature, philosophy, science, politics, etc. There were huge social changes going on that were affecting everything. A lot of that was enabled of the rise of mass culture. The spread of literacy, newspapers, urban areas, etc.

    I like a lot of the artists that preceded the Impressionists, btw.

    I don't think we're necessarily talking about people getting less creative or more creative. Every generation might have brilliant creative people, but their focus might be entirely different, and that leads to different results. Talking about RPGs and computer games... Everything RG and everyone else of that era was doing was new and done with startup funds, and catered to a certain type of market.

    Then, suddenly the PC games market went through a lot of changes. IMO,

    1. The PC gaming market was shifting to a mainstream audience. Games companies were afraid that a mass audience that liked console games formatted a bit simpler or they wouldn't play it. They also wanted to compare games to movies, and felt sandbox games harmed the ability to tell a story. A lot of this was just second-guessing the market, underestimating them, and a bit patronizing of the existing PC gamer market, treating them like a geek culture. It also became really easy to market and sell uncreative games, when it wasn't before.

    2. Legitimate burnout with attempts to either add more realism or loosen hand-holding, like in UO. There was a consensus that UO failed in many ways, and other games that were focused on realism either made things overcomplicated or over-hostile to players. A lot of this simply didn't work, and some of it makes games unfun. It also seems counter-intuitive to some people when treating gaming as an art to focus on realism, since that's always considered a kind of petty idea.

    3. The tendency for players to ask for lazy gameplay. A lot of TV show writers and game designers fall too much into the trap of giving too much "fan service." In games, this might mean a lot of people complaining about some things being too difficult. Some of these points might be legitimate, but giving into them too much changes the nature of the games completely.
     
  10. Joviex

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    Nor would I, but I don't think anyone wants to read a 20 page paper on it either =p

    The thrust, I hope, was: It takes more than desire, most times, to spark a revolution of change. Sometimes, again, most times, we do not even perceive the actual change around us. It takes historians to reflect back and pinpoint the moments of deviation.

    One can say we have a revolution in CRPG games already. 30 years is a ridiculously small amount of time for any movement.

    I ascribe the same tendency to your points #1 and #3 as simply human nature. If someone walked up to Monet or Manet and said, please sir(s), I want nothing but flowers, all day long, paint them in your beautiful style for me! I will pay all day long.

    You honestly think they would not have said ok? They would have said OK, taken the money, and in the nighttime, their time, continued to do what they want, free from restriction.

    Money drives the market, the market drives the money. This is not something going away, nor has it changed since Adam Smith wrote it down.

    Now, the real question is, are developers taking that same "freedom of opportunity" to invest in better ideas? Some are. Most are not, again, human nature.

    If you want real revolutionary ideas, innovative ideas, you must look to the indie. Places where Indiegogo, Patreon, Kickstarter, have given those artists the means to practise what they want, new desires, new frontiers.

    I surely expect bigger companies to make those beautiful paintings still though, as people keep asking them to do so. Stop asking, get people to stop asking. Market follows the money.

    You want another really great place to go watch develop? Twitch. There is an entire category dedicated to "development". Get people over there, watching, learning, contributing, donating. MAKE the next revolution.

    Sadly, I don't feel this "game" is it. It lacks the desire to really push new avenues. There is not much innovation here, even though people see it as legit, they are just not looking/playing the games that have done this stuff already.

    There are great products out there, trying to find a voice, set themselves apart with astonishing vision and want and freedom among the mediocrities.
     
  11. Themo Lock

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    You kids with your hair and your walk man radio! *shakes walker*
     
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  12. Spoon

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    redfish,

    I can complain about bad systems all day, and I can cheer good systems all day. I've done that elsewhere in these forums.
    That doesn't mean that RP is more dead or less dead.
    If we look on D&D as a system then that is bad for RP, there has been plenty better RP systems, but to say that RP is dead because D&D is popular is missing how much RP can be done given even such systems as D&D.
    Why that is the case is because the system needs something interesting in itself as well. Sometimes this attracts players who are more interested in the system than the RP itself. The quintessential roll-player vs role-player of old. But that misses that all those roll players enables a lot of role playing and that a lot of role players used to be roll players before.
    Same holds true for any if the old MUDs or CRPG or MMO, there must be a basic system that draws people in and connects them, then you have a chance.

    Now your art angle is strange, I think it holds no good allegory towards RP trends, neither in pen and paper nor MMO. The so called golden era of pen and paper RPG was undoubtedly the 80s but I'd say that most people who played in the 80s wasn't as good role players as people in the 90s and later. Simply because people didn't have the skill set nor the experience. Instead you had a lot of war gamers playing RPGs with little to none actual in character role playing. What then happened was that as they matured and the community matured lots more RP happened which gave the new folks a much better skill set and experience to build upon. There are countless tales of an older GM opening the eyes of a younger playing group.
    The art allegory doesn't hold since it has very little merit towards cultural trends in that it more reflects the era which highlighted the former trends than the actual trends. What people today see as typical 60s or typical 80s wasn't typical in the 60s or 80s. So it says more about us than it does about them.
    Nor does historical hindsight give an accurate view on what the quality was during each era without some set of standards to compare with, which are non existant. What we think are interesting in hindsight is not the same as what was interesting for those who lived it. This is easily seen by artists who were considered crap by their contemporaries but great by those after. Famous after you die and all that jazz. That doesn't suddenly make all those who viewed the artist as crap wrong. Just shows that art appreciation changes and what is popular doesn't necessarily have longevity.
     
  13. Tahru

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    @Joviex

    +1

    Anything is possible though. Look at craft brewing. The big companies have been bleeding market share and it seems they have been unable to compete. In the end, I expect some Titans will fall and some little guys will become Titans.
     
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  14. redfish

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    Spoon,

    Yes, sometimes people complaining about the art of their era might be right, other times they might be wrong; other times they might not know everything that's going on. It's opinion and debatable. But the view of a lot of old-time Ultima players here I think is a lot of mainstream MMOs today don't support role-playing well, and a lot of the players of those games want what they have, and aren't interested in anything more.

    I agree with that, largely. I also think some mainstream games have been pushing forward the genre in some good ways even while losing in others, like Elder Scrolls. I enjoyed Skyrim a lot ; though I also feel its missing a lot, too. I like a lot of indie RPGs too, like Unreal World, though they have obvious problems for mass appeal because of their interface or graphics.

    What's left is just to argue for and support the games you want to see. And more role-playing in role-playing games is an idea I think that's worth arguing for.

    I don't agree with Joviex that SotA isn't doing anything original. It might be more conservative than he likes in some areas... but to me it feels a lot different than what's currently out there.
     
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  15. Xi_

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    every online rp community i've looked at has turned out to be a commonality not a community.
     
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  16. Tahru

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    Can you please clarify this? I am just curious.
     
  17. Xi_

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    not sure if I can, community infers joint possession, enjoyment, and liability. Things I've yet to find online, most often I feel as though I've joined a bunch of Nazi's or something.
     
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  18. Tahru

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    I see, I was trying to understand the definition of commonality in that context. I can't remember having an enjoyable D&D game. I did have fun with the idea of building the character and all, but all i can remember is a very dominant DM that never seemed open to variation in the story line. But I am sure that is just my extremely limited experience in the genre. I am hoping there will be much better opportunities with mature players in the game.
     
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  19. Joviex

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    Isnt that the very idea of what you describe? Not to be extreme with a Nazi reference, but a community is about shared ideas.

    So, if you tend to share those ideas, you join said community.

    Over time your ideas might change, and then that community no longer looks like what you enjoy, or want(ed) it to be.

    I guess the struggle is really to find something that fits, for a long time. Definitely not easy.
     
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  20. Xi_

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    I table top 3 nights a week, it took me or i should say us, a long time to reach this point in our lives and as open as our campaigns are for the players we still encounter this at the table, lets face it, not every game master is ready for you to run off into the woods to become a true barbarian and join the horde! sometimes as the player you have to recognise this and givem' a break by trying to play along, it is a two way street, with out that 2 way street the game will end.
     
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