An introduction and intial impressions

For my part, I like the deck system now that I've started getting to grips with it. I feel like it gives an impression of the chaos of battle even if it's a rather artificial way of doing it. And it's different from any another system I've seen, which automatically makes me think more about how best to use it, rather than picking my 'optimum' combat setup and not changing it for months/years once I get comfortable.

I do agree about the resource nodes being far from ideal - but ultimately I'll accept whatever mechanics make it into the final game. I guess one of the things that still appeals to me is that I'll have to figure out the world almost completely from scratch, knowledge of how other games work (or don't) will not necessarily be useful. It's a bit like being a child again, and gives me more sense of immersion than any particular game element

 

amen someone who expressed far better than I did how I feel about shroud, I agree 500% on all of his points, now I understand that my opinion doesnt carry as much weight as some of the others here do but this man has hit 100% every single nail on the head dead on

including the deck, im sorry the deck has gotta go

 

Greetings Vaentorian, I am thrilled that you enjoy the challenge of solving such game problems. It has been long overdue. Regards,

 

I understand the deck system and I have actually figured out an optimum deck for my character, but quite honestly I do not feel that my abilities should be 100% dependant on rng, as the OP posted if I know how to cast magic missile, then I should be able to state I am casting Magic Missile into the darkness and not have to state, I am casting wait for it, wait for it, wait for it, wait for it, wait for it, wait for it, finally magic missile into the darkness, Im sorry the deck concept is good I understand the why, but again this is 2015, not 1990 lets get on with playing the game, not sit around waiting for it to pop up, lemme ask you this, if you are out on a date, at the movie theatre and your in a really really good movie at a very intense moment, and your girl is clinging on to you, suddenly the show stops and the cameraman shouts out sorry guys, I gotta wait for it to pop up. how would you feel?

 

Welcome! I agree on the node gathering issue. I've come to appreciate the deck system (at least compared to standard hot-bar systems), although I think it is something that does not really work until your character has a good bit of "Focus" skills learned. Also level systems are not my favourite, I prefer a skill system, but that said I've not found SoTA to have the "feel" of a level system, if that makes any sense? Perhaps because you spend your points where you like rather than having several inherent abilities tied directly to level (such as "hit points" always going up automatically per level in many systems). Anyway most things I am not entirely fond of in the game (other than the gathering node system) I attribute mainly to pre-alpha status rather than design issues, but time will tell I suppose.

Enjoy and welcome to SoTA again

 

As I stated in one of my replies on this thread, I too have "gotten used to" the various systems in place in SotA that I don't necessarily agree with or like. But that's actually a pretty common trend I've noticed on the forums here - even supporters of the Deck or Level systems (aside from the most devout) are of the "you'll get used to it" variety. That leads me to believe that, unless the devs are scouring every post on here (I wouldn't be surprised if they are, but I find it doubtful) they're taking a look at the broad acceptance of the systems that are in place, and feel they're on the right track - not realizing the majority of the support for the systems in question are those who are grudgingly supporting them, which could be for a number of reasons (Got used to it, doubt they'll change, blindly support whatever devs do just to ensure they get a game, etc).

So, after further playtime, here is my revised solution:

Currently, player goes out and kills 23 skeletons and hits the level up. Player reports to the skill trainer and allocates his points. Player modifies Deck/loadout as needed. Rinse, repeat.​

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Benefits: Flexibility, allows different skills/loadouts to be used at a moment's notice. Can skip some parts of skill tree player doesn't want. Full control over HP/Focus stats.​

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Detriments: Artificial, player can be equally skilled in any weapon or magic he chooses, even is he's never used it before, simply by switching up skill points. Can't skip prerequisite skills, even if you never plan to use them. Can foresee an "ideal" skill set and Deck combination being found and adopted by majority of players, making that one class prevalent across the land. Rewards min/maxing, penalizes being "different". Removes the feeling of accomplishment mastering a skill gives a player, and makes players feel less attached to their avatar.​

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I propose skill gain being changed to a use-based system, with various aspects of it governed by the player's level - special moves only gained every X levels and beyond X skill, X number of skill being gain-able per level, and X number of stat points gained per level to be applied to Str/Dex/Int with HP derived from Str and Focus derived equally from Dex/Int - with both giving diminishing returns at high level. Int could also govern skill gain/level, special moves active at any given time, etc. Beyond that, special moves would all be trainable by an NPC, if you have enough skill in the appropriate skill, and for a sum of gold. Attack is governed by the specific skill, rather than player level. Player only levels up after reaching the designated amount of XP and skill points. Special Moves are performed by hitting a button we can drag anywhere onto our screen (C'mon, who doesn't miss THAT?), and can be performed at any time - with a focus cost and perhaps a short cooldown.​

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So, for example, Player starts out fresh into the game. He has 5 Str, 5 Dex, and 5 Int. At 5 Str, he has 20 HP, and 5 Dex/5 Int each give him 10 Focus, so he has 20 Focus total. At 5 Int, he can gain 30 skill points across as many skills as he wants, with no one skill going over 10 before they lock until he levels up. He has, let's say, 50 XP to hit level 2. After killing a couple goats, a few chickens, and barely handling a stag, he finally has 10 in Swordsmanship, maxing it for the moment. Tactics and Skinning each also raised to 4 while he was hunting. So he has 12 to go. He takes his skins and makes a couple pieces of leather armor, raising Tanning and Sewing to 6 each. But he still hasn't leveled up, because crafting doesn't give as much XP as combat - so with his new armor, he braves the stags again, and has much better luck since he upped his survivability. Level 2! He drops 2 stat points into Str, 2 into Dex, and 1 into Int - giving him 24 HP, 23 Focus, and he can now earn 32 skill points per level with 6 Int. He also can learn his first special move, so he heads off to find a low-level trainer. He can't take any magic spells, because he has no skill in any form of magic, nor can he take an archery special move for the same reason. He finds with his 10 Swordsmanship, he can learn Skewer, but he can't afford it, as he has no gold yet. So, he takes those Stag hides, makes a couple more pieces of armor, and sells them to an NPC - thus raising the gold he needs.​

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Benefits: Varied routes from level to level. No Level 10 player will have gotten there the same way. Allows the already-developed skills and spells to be used still, just in a different manner. Adds more attachment between player and avatar. Makes the player do different things over the course of leveling, exposing him to different aspects of gameplay and eliminating the tedium of grinding by forcing him to switch up what he's doing. Not macro-able. Provides a dev-controlled gold sink, players paying to learn special moves.​

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Detriments: Obviously asking the devs to completely change such an integral system, at this point, maybe be problematic (at best). Players who're used to (or prefer) the current method may be hard sells. Balancing XP versus Skill Gain to determine level ups, and all the inherent math with derived stats and whatnot could be a pain. Balancing XP from combat versus XP from crafting.​

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Also, allow me to take this moment to reaffirm a couple of my earlier suggestions:

• Crafting recipes should always be logical, and materials should never be redundant. Timber/board? Ingot/bar? Simplify a little, but not too much. Multi-step products are great, but ensure there's reward equivalent to the effort.
• All rock formations should be able to be mined at any spot, the ore nodes that exist now could be changed to simply show what ore is in a specific formation, should be un-minable, and disappear when a formation is mined out (along with a notification "There is no more ore to be gathered here").
• All trees should be able to be chopped. Instead of the felled tree remaining, make it despawn a bit after falling.

 

Welcome Entrappedmind. I have just finished reading yours and others thoughts on this thread. I also enjoyed reading your thoughts on this thread.

It is very interesting to me to read a new persons thoughts because of course those of us who have been here longer are used to some of the ways that
are already in game and yet while discussing our ideas of what we like and don't like, it's still not that first impression, it's a build over time for some
of it.

I also admire the way you write, it is really a good read and well written.

I am very excited and interested to see how the game all comes together when content is added in and all systems are completed. I do feel that
it will have a different feel and many different looks as it is polished, optimized, and as time goes by getting closer to release. You did really well
on your thoughts for now. I look forward to more. So we keep rallying for having the best game ever.

 

Thank you, Majoria, for your input. Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing how all of this coalesces into a finished product, that's part of the reason I couldn't resist getting involved any longer. I hope to do my part in shaping something we all come to love and hold dear.

 

Again this is just me, but I don't feel like I'm 'settling' for substandard gameplay or that 'getting used to it' is a negative thing, it's a normal process of any new game I play and is part of the fun. Any system for handling combat, resources etc will have its detractors, even if they scrap the deck system and go with something completely different, it will just be different people who are unhappy about it.

My take on the early testing & feedback currently happening is that the rough shape of the game already exists, and we're helping add detail and polish, whereas scrapping an entire system like (semi-)random deck-based combat is more like chopping a limb off a statue and replacing it; in which case it would almost make more sense to get a new block of stone and start again with a whole different design. It's fair enough if some people are frustrated by some aspects of how the game works, and of course they're entitled to say so, but it's not very practical to suggest making huge changes when it's already so far underway, rather think about how they can be tweaked to make them less frustrating.

 

You're absolutely right on all points. Which is why I made the caveats that I did in my post, and tried to frame my suggestion in a way that much/most of the work that was already performed would still be utilized. Win/win!

 

Cool you are liking the game. However there are a few points I feel strongly about defending.

Levelling - Levelling has no place in a UO game - whether this is a direct descendant of it or a spiritual successor, it doesn't matter. You're talking about the same player-base either way - and they're (for the most part) not going to like the "Earn XP, level up, distribute points" cycle. To be honest, the idea of having a character of specific level is what turned me away from ever playing any of the other MMO's over the years. The use-based system in UO set you apart from everyone else, and to abandon that sets the game back.

Actually Leveling is apart of every major Ultima game. UO was different. That was how we gained power in Ultima IV-IX. Also the leveling just represents skill points we gain and it is a means to reduce grinding out each indidual skill. I personally don't want a UO style skill gain, although I wouldn't mind seeing UO style skills (0-100).


Deck Building - Combat feels fluid, and aside from some balancing feels good - until you get to the special abilities/spells. Having a limited number of tactical options (if they're locked) or depending upon a random draw to use a special ability or spell that your character knows? This is a glaring problem, and ruins not only the tactical aspect of combat, but also the immersion. If your character knows how to cast a fireball, and has the focus available to do so, there's no reason he shouldn't be able to cast the spell. Adding an artificial limitation like that doesn't add anything to the game, it takes away from it.

I have 5 fireballs in my deck and I always have a fireball whenever I need it... in fact I usually have more than one. So I can cast my spells one after another without a cooldown. Sounds like you are not using the deck properly. I'm serious! With the slight changes to spell damage vs stacking, I am not seeing any immersion breaking at all (since i'm not forced to stack), in fact when I'm in combat I'm so focused on beating the other guy I'm beggining to forget the deck is even there (which is soemething I've been asking for the last few releases). As the deck system evolves it will only get better.

Crafting - As I understand it, crafting was much better before R14, and the recipes actually made sense. So I'll wait and see on that one.

We differ on this one, because I think crafting actually getting better. It is a bit challenging like creating an actual item from scratch. Although after I crafted an item a few times I stopped having to look at the recipes and got rather quick at it. I think they are doing an excellent job with crafting and they haven't even added all of the cool features they are planning to add to crafting later on like those special events where we actually need to use some timing and skill of our own to craft a better item. I call this feature a win!


X

 

I feel UO's player progression was different from Ultima IV-IX because of the online component. The leveling system as it stood in the single-player games simply wouldn't translate to online. If you read further (my last reply), perhaps my revised suggestion would appeal to you more than a broad "UO style skill gain" system. If I'm closer, let me know.

Could you elaborate on this? I'm not entirely sure what you mean regarding "spell damage vs stacking".

I was referring to the recipes that got broken/altered in R14, like polearms not being craftable, or a leather chest armor requiring something like 120 leather to create. The crafting system as a whole, I entirely enjoy. That's why I said I was taking a "wait and see" approach on it, because R14 broke part of it.

PS: Nice signature, very clean and eye-catching!

 

ok I described exactly where the immersion breaking comes into play with the deck system quite adequately i thought, but if you would like I will try to explain it in another way to see if it helps,

lets say we are in a battle to protect Britain, agains tthe hordes of advancing ogres, Darkstarr suddenly takes a giant club to the face and is bleeding out on the ground, I quickly shout dont worry I got him, I rush to his side and begin to cast a healing spell to heal him of his wounds, suddenly up where the heal spell should be pops a slug, I tell Darkstarr " hold on Sire I got a slug" then I wait and wait and wait and finally a new card pops up its another slug "hold on sire I got another slug" I wait and wait, meanwhile Darkstarr is slowly bleeding out on the ground, Finally I get a heal spell and start to cast it, and it fizzles, " Just Wait I will get another heal" as I wait in vain for another heal to pop up my deck filled with attacks and slugs, he slowly fades away, the battle is lost.....

I am sorry you call this immersive? I call it ridiculous, its not believable, it doesnt lead to immersive gameplay, and definetly no bard will write a song about our doings on the battle field and if they did it would go something like this "the reason Sir Darkstarr died was because of a slug"

and as far as levelling? have you ever watched a movie or read a book where it said so and so was a level X mage? no you have read of apprentices, and novices and master mages and
grandmaster mages


and the crafting in R14 is terrible, and I will explain why

here I am a simple shepherd going to make me a set of leather armor to protect my lands

first I must kill all my sheep, all my neighbours sheep, and then all my horses and my neighbours horses and every wolf and deer in the province in order to make 10 yards of leather in order to make one single chest piece to wear into battle........

 

LEVELING:
Leveling has worked in many online games. What is the difference between being online or offline that nullifies levels? That's a rhetorical question, I don't need an answer.

The point about having levels is to remove the grind. I didn't like using a skill over and over and over and over and over in order to finally become GM in that skill. It is unrealistic to have mages casting spells on you burning you and poisoning you etc etc just so you can GM magic resistance. If you think about that, it is rather silly don't you think? Although I do agree with you that the Zero through One-hundred skill points to master a skill is something I really miss in SotA.

SPELL STACKING: two releases ago somebody posted something about stacking our glyphs. I found that stacking 5 spells did considerably more damage. Since spells did such ridiculously low damage it only made sense to keep stacking glyphs and using mind lock to keep the skills from discarding. However this method turned out to be stressful and caused me to micromanage my glyphs.

Now they have reduced the damage output of the stacked spells, so that it appears that it only helps increase the crit and lower focus cost. So stacking 5 glyphs every time was no longer necessary. So I stack when I want to, but other times I just use single glyphs. AND THAT has removed the stress and micromanaging of my deck to the point I hardly notice the deck anymore. It is very easy to use the deck system without being heavily enticed to stack glyphs.

I didn't put the X in the bottom left. It must have remained after I finished editing my post. After seeing the X I didn't go back and edit it because I also think it looks rather ... wait for it.... Awesome.

 

Why are you getting slugs? There are no more slugs unless you didn't populate your deck right. They removed armor giving us slugs. Nobody should have any slugs in their deck at all.

The problem with this particular criticism is that your post is a made up story, not accurate in its portrayal of the deck system. Read the release notes next time and maybe test the deck system before giving feedback about claims that you don't have skills when you need them, and mentioning a phased out game mechanic "slugs". If you get slugs now it is your fault.

If you cannot get your skill to show up reliably then you are doing it wrong. I always seem to have the skill I need because I created the deck correctly, and some others have really good decks out there.

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JUST FOR SOME PERSPECTIVE HERE, if you are playing World of Warcraft and your spell is in a cool down state it could also be argued that you do not have the skill. In the deck system we have no cool-downs. If you skill doesn't show up it should very quickly... MUCH faster than any cool down that's for sure. I usually have more than one of the skill I need at any given time.

 

well guess what I still have slugs and if I still have slugs then the slugs are still there and apparently I am not the only one that still has slugs in their deck, now you can say oh im sorry you didnt make your deck right, you need a masters degree in deck making in order to be able to enjoy the game. it couldnt possibly be that the deck system is horribly implemented just because you figured it out.

 

Make sure you have at least 20 glyphs in the deck.

 

The # of glyphs you need varies based on level (?), from what I've noticed. So, yeah, Dasilva, you've just got to add more glyphs. That'll remove the slugs. Only time I've run into slugs is when I went from level 30 to 31 if I remember right, my deck went from 20 to 25, so I wound up with 5 slugs without noticing it until I got into combat.

I don't necessarily like the "grind" either, and your example of Resist was an apt one - everyone HATED GM'ing that one. I know. But to be honest, how's the leveling system any less of a "grind"? I'm going out, and just whacking pack after pack of baddies, trying to min/max my effort versus XP gained, and repeating until I level up... Uh, that's grinding, just as much as anything we did (short of macros) in UO.

Re: Stacking - Oh! I've been doing that and didn't even realize it was called anything. lol. My fault for not understanding your initial reference to it.

Re: X - No, I was referring to the graphical siggy, the one with your name in it. Looks good, whether you did it or somebody else. I like. I used to do sigs back in the day, so I always point out when I see ones I like.

Dude, that's an awesome example. Love it lol!

 

Leveling is less of a grind because you can go about your life doing what ever you want. If you gain experience you gain levels and you buy the skills you want.

That is a better approach than grinding one skill at a time. Rather than making the plate helm 500 times to get from 97.2 to 99.4 in blacksmith, you can actively be gathering resources and making stuff instead.

 

Dasilva if you have slugs you have to choose some more skills.
Like for example I wanted to max out one of my favorite bludgeon skill but I
couldn't do it yet or I'll get slugs for not picking enough skills. So I had to go down *my* bludgeon
tree further and choose knockback and another skill. So if you have slugs you need to choose more skills. That's how it works ,and I have 1 locked skill and that is heal. I always have it, don't need it much unless I go to kill ghosts or something tough like liches then of course unless I have an awesome party with me