What is the line between PvP and Griefing?

I wouldn't consider it griefing unless the lvl 5s were then attempting to leave the area after being killed only to be constantly rez killed. If they are rezzing and running back into the land willingly, the PVPers are PKing, not griefing.

 

Correct, you won't be able to go into these zones in SPO after release because the quests they have in game that go into these areas are meant to be PVP oriented. However, I believe they said that you would never be thrown in against your will which means that none of the main quest line will take place there.

I can imagine there will eventually be some quests that have rares as the reward that will include entering these areas and that's fine.

 

And THAT is the key distinction here. All players have an option. Two, in fact.

1. Brave the Consensual PvP zone in Multiplayer.
2. Login to Single Player Online and go to the same place.

Yes, it would be optimal as the OP suggested to have more in game options. Perhaps the Devs wanted to test the behavior of the community, as well as the game mechanics. Either way, lesson learned.

We all know that people are going to behave badly wherever we go in life. Godz know that lady that nearly hit me in the Target parking lot, just to get a better parking space, deserved to be fed to the Rez Killerz. I'm smiling just thinking of the image. But I do not have the option to log into an environment where I don't have to put with other players when I'm driving to the store. Here, in SotA, we do.

 

Thanks for the clarification, Mystic. I have to disagree about it being fine though, in the case of rares. By my lights, that comes under the heading of gating-content-behind-pvp, which for me is not acceptable except in pvp-centric games, which they've said this is not.

Rares, collectibles, resources, etc., should never be gated behind pvp & not obtainable by any means other than pvp, in a game that professes to be fully consensual pvp.

If it is, that needs to be made crystal clear right up front where it can be seen prior to opening one's wallet so that non-pvps can make an informed decision about putting money in the game and not get sucker-punched later.

 

A few people are assuming that everybody that likes a bit of PvP emulates the play style of Envies videos ... there are some super nice people that enjoy PvP.

 

I really like to bring up this little jewel of a story because it helps put things in perspective when people start tying to define ethics in a game.

Sourced from http://www.uo.com/article/Memorable-Moments-Richard-Garriot

The Thief
One day, early in the life of UO, I was participating as a GM and going to the aid of people who requested it. A note flashed across my screen from a woman, who said something like “Today is my first day trying to play UO, and every time I try to leave town a thief steals all my stuff, so I have to restart, and he does the same. If this continues I will quit and never come back to this game.” So I arrived in her presence as Lord British, not that she cared, she did not know or care who I was, and only wanted her problem fixed. I felt I was up to the seemingly simple task. I told her to come with me, and I would escort her out of town. As we left town, suddenly *ZIP* a thief flew across the screen at speeds I could hardly understand, and stole her gear and disappeared! I told her to wait here, as I teleported to try and get in advance of the speedy ruffian. When I finally froze him with a GM command, I revealed myself as Lord British, and told him to leave this poor woman alone, that this would drive away potential new players which we could not allow. Stop or else I would ban him from the game! He begged for forgiveness, and pledged to never do it to her again.
Satisfied, I returned the stolen items to the woman and told her, she should be safe now for at least a while, when *ZIP* the same thief came by again and stole all her items and disappeared. So, I chased him down a second time, and told him, hey, you had been warned, now I am going to ban you. He pleaded and pleaded and exclaimed how exuberance had overtaken him, and that he swore this time he would never do it again! Reluctantly, I believed him, and took the belongings back to the woman, again.
But then, for a third time, the same thief *ZIPPED* by… I froze him to the ground and told him, I was about to ban him! Then for the first time… he broke character, and refered to me out of character as well… “Look Richard Garriott”, he said, “You guys made the rules to this game, the rules include the role of thief, I am playing just as the role would be intended to be played. If the King tells a thief not to steal, of course he will beg for mercy and swear he won’t again. But what do you expect of me… I am a thief!”
After some thought… I agreed with him. So instead of banning him, I teleported him to the far side of the world. Then I gave the items back to the woman who could finally go about her business. After that, I began to think more carefully about the rules we ourselves put in the game, and the inevitable play styles that would come of it.

 

I'm super nice and enjoy PvP

 

Yea, but when no one is told you can do that, how is anyone supposed to know that that is a workaround? The devs should have posted that if you dont want to engage in PvP or get ganked, you can do the quest in SPO mode instead. I for one had no idea that was possible.

And more importantly, if this kind of thing happens when the game is actually released, that won't be a possibility anymore, so then what are you supposed to do?

 

Risk and reward

Everyone knows I camp there 24/7 just waiting for someone to show up

 

I see your point. I knew that this was possible, because it was in the manual. And on the forums. But not everyone is as geeky as I am to read lots of stuff first.

Well, I think that Mystic answered part of your question. Main Storyline will likely avoid these areas. Perhaps we will also see Starter Quests that demonstrate how to log into the various modes.

I think that we can agree that, once players know how to avoid experiences that they don't enjoy, this becomes a non-issue and we can all enjoy the game that we like. I like Envy. He's a major challenge. I hope that you will one day too.

 

Before I post this, know that I am a supporter of PvP and having PvP zones. That said....

Forcing people into a certain playstyle (PvP) against their will, for the purpose of getting intentionally placed rare items in PvP zones that are unobtainable in any other way, is not good game design.

Rather, its a cheesy and poorly thought out way of forcing people to play PvP characters and take PvP skills, thereby completely abandoning their character builds and roleplaying style.

The only way this would not be so is if the rare item is ONLY useful in PvP battles and becomes normal outside of PvP zones. Otherwise PvP players will always have an advantage over everyone else, and tip the MMO scales in their favour artificially both from a financial standpoint and a gear standpoint.

 

I get forced into PvM all the time to get rare items.........I hate PvM.

 

Not sure why you think I dont like Envy, Ive never spoken ill about him and in fact I don't know him one way or the other, but he seems fine from what I've read. He makes pretty similar points and acts similar to most PvP'ers Ive chatted with over the years and in many games.

The discussion is supposed to be around the differences between PvP and griefing, although its quickly morphing into a discussion on whether devs should be putting rares into PvP only zones that you cant get in any other way.

*munches popcorn to see which way the discussion will go*

 

Exactly my point, and I couldnt agree with you more.

You SHOULD be able to get the rares as well Envy, in PvP zones if necessary since thats the way the devs decided to take this game. You shouldnt be forced into PvM zones against your will just to get a rare that would make your gamestyle artifically unbalanced.

 

Some people haven't been on the other end of the stick, apparently. No worries, we all have our own definitions for greifing.

 

I have lol, when i first started i flagged for pvp and got ganked at the skill trainer, abused and camped.. everybody thought it was hilarious -.-

 

@Mystic, how do you plan to counteract greifing?

 

For people who enjoy actual griefing like the kind that @Innessa Lelania posted, I believe it needs to be dealt with on a case by case basis as well so that the actions of few don't have affect the majority by needing restrictions put in place. You take advantage of players long enough and cause enough problems, then things are put into place to physically prevent you from doing them and restrict freedom of play even more. That is not something anyone wants. If handled one at a time, I think it will weed a lot of the griefers out of the game.

It will take time and resources to do that, but those resources I believe are necessity.

 

I also got ganked by Envy and his friend, so Envy is showing a flaw in the system,
there should be more than one spawn point in open PVP zones.

Open PVP zone is Open PVP zone, it is not 1v1 it is not consensual its just a battle zone.
No one should be forced to enter an open PVP zone, the main problem here is Devs
placing Tour guide in the middle of a batle zone so don't blame Envy for playing
open PVP in an open PVP zone.

 

Its the first PVP hat, i wear mine in battle.