An Alternative PvP Suggestion To Bring In PvErs

Firstly, I want to thank the Dev Team for addressing so many of the public's concerns, including my own in the recent Update #113 ... I am still not a believer however in the idea that increased resources in PvP zones will be a unifying solution to the different play styles. I want to sketch out the problems here, and a suggested alternative that might address them.

The Problem:

MMOs traditionally are about three things for PvE players; Community, adventure, and personal progression. Increasingly in the modern market they rely upon that last one, the addiction that comes from grinding towards that little level up "Ding!"; Shroud however is attempting to put much more focus on the first two as well.

PvPers in the MMO setting generally want the thrill of combat against human intelligence. However there's a subset in the sandbox genre, and especially with Shroud which is seen as a spiritual successor to Ultima Online, to want to have "sheep to shear", to be able to kill non-combat characters. They also want to be rewarded for doing this, either from taking items directly from the people they kill, or from some environmental advantage.

The problem then is that the second set of players directly impinge upon the firsts enjoyment of the game. What is more, they negatively influence their personal progression, by killing or looting them. Obviously this isn't going to be attractive to the PvE groups values.

Why Increased Resources In PvP Zones Won't Work.

PvErs just aren't interested in the kind of free form, and often unfairly balanced fights that such PvPers want. Crafters in particular want the pleasure of quiet creation. And the more you increase rewards in zones where being attacked can happen, the more you are rewarding PvPers just for existing, whilst increasing general animus in the PvE crowd who now see a faster route to progression locked behind a system of play they don't like;
The classic example would be Powerscrolls in Felucca. Rather than luring people to the spawns, people very quickly realised a small group of dedicated players would ambush them whilst distracted with the target and kill them and take what they had actually done all of the PvE work on. So that system was abandoned too. This lead tp the PvP crowd were calling for the rewards to be increased to lure more back. Except people who PvE then expected to get ganked even harder, they felt what they were being told was meant "you are a Piñata, and you've been given richer chocolate stuffing for the inevitable beatings", and said "We're not going back at all". The issue is people don't want to feel like they are a target. They want to feel like they're signing up for something that, even when it doesn't reward, feels like fun. Being a target for someone else is, for PvErs, No Fun.

So what examples have worked? Well PvP in World of Warcraft remains incredibly popular; however this has two factors which mitigate against disgust. There's no outright loss for those involved. And there's a Reputation Grind behind it which guarantees progression for those involved... the resources are there, but not controlled by other players, only raised by the contributions of players, including for killing each other.
Shroud however aims to be a deeper experience than that. So what's my suggestion? You thought we'd never get to it, eh. But here's the first.

Suggestion 1: King Of The Castle

Firstly, remove the higher rate of rare resources from the zones. Instead, put in a prize specific to PvP. Have each Shardfall record the combat of everyone within each zone. I believe leaderboards are already intended, so piggy back on that technology.

I'd be interested in the PvP communities views of how in zone activity should be measured; but the aim is to declare someone the greatest killer over a month real time; outright kills might be prone to alt-character killing so perhaps also include time spent in zone? Damage done and taken? What do you think? But at the end of every month, someone is declared the winner and they get the temporary ownership of a Castle in a PvP zone.

Fictionwise, perhaps you need to spill more blood over a shardfall material key then all other individual's keys to declare yourself master of the Shardfall Castle. However, as everyone else also has their own keys, they can still get into the castle and kill you.

Why would you want one to be King then? Well apart from the bragging rights, and the extra storage and ability to own something you might not be able to get once the game goes live (see Update #113) let's say there's a unique Shardfall Forge inside the castle that as owner, you can allow yourself and friends to use and apply a unique, PvP only weapon or armour mod... if you can get past all the people trying to kill you and add to their credit for next month that is.

Or perhaps... there's an actual Shardfall crystal inside, which pulses with evil power and gives the individual dark powers inside the castle zone only. Can you say Team Fortress Saxton Hale Mod? You have the strength of 100 men inside that zone, but if everyone gangs up and manages to kill you, you're locked out of that zone for a month, having broken the bond between individual and shard. Kills as "Saxton" ("Darkstarr Disciple"?) don't count for castle ownership, natch.

These are just ideas for how PvPers could be rewarded for pure PvP. Don't make crafters go there. But we do want them to go somewhere, right? So...

Suggestion 2: Integrate Siege Mechanics Into PvP

We know sieges are eventually planned in game. And what do sieges really need more than knights for most of the time? Crafters. Especially of war machines, barricades etc. So here's the idea.

Have certain zones as internally open PvP, but they are part of a siege; town, faction, to be plot decided. That faction puts out a call for workers to build towers to defend, or siege machines to assault. Now the crafter can craft "Palisades", "Ball Bearings" etc and hand them in to an NPC representative in a PvE zone, which get added to the PvP scene... 100 Palisades fortifies a particular hill for instance... but for low individual credit. Or, if they brave the zone and build them themselves manually, that is they go in and whack away at that particular hill whilst carrying the palisades, they get much more credit, for both labour and risking life and limb for the cause.

Whilst in the zone, the "Palisades" etc are the only thing that can be looted off you; however if taken they can be applied to what ever faction the killer in turn is associated with, aiding their side. If they can whack away long enough to get them up too.

Also whilst fighting in Siege zones, individual kills also count for their factions progress towards victory. You wouldn't let people just wander around unmolested, would you?

What does faction credit count for? Ahh here's where we moved the rarer resources too; Leave them tied only to PvP related mods/weapons etc, but if the faction you work for gets control of the zone (wins/loses the siege) they control the resources. And they post to you your share of the mine/farm etc, based upon your total contribution within as a thank you for helping. The advantages of this are;

1.) Players sign up for, and can control their own involvement, rather than have it forced on them
2.) You don't have to PvP to get resources, but if you risk it, you get far more.
3.) You actually are crafting first and foremost. And you get to see the world physically change for your contribution.
4.) PvPers can kill you in the zone and take the crafting stuff off you, but it has no other use than in the PvP zone, so PvErs might be more willing to enter, or indirectly support PvP gameplay.
5.) It acts to slow down inflation as it draws out economic resources into building.

All of it would require a lot more thought than included here, but I personally would be much more likely to get involved in that than I would open world PvP.

So. Thoughts everyone...?

 

very Nicly put TY for taking the time to put it out there with some modem of restraint, LoL I am not able to do so with the PvP mindest

 

My own biases are pretty obvious I expect, but I do actually want those players to be in, and have fun in game somewhere

And I don't have a problem with trying to bridge the gap between play styles, I just think anything which starts as "You have to be a sheep" is doomed to failure. The aim is to rephrase it so people can say they actually like the role they have in the fights... you might not be the Knight who history records was first onto the walls of Acre, but you can be the one who built the siege tower that rolled up to them so they could, perhaps; or built the trebuchet on the other side that flattened, or mixed the Greek fire that burnt it down so they couldn't!

 

What must not be overlooked is that the goal of any PVP system in SOTA should be (and currently is) to integrate PVP in a meaningful way with the PVE economy. Any segregation (pvp specific prizes) or (pvp arena battles) will result in PVE players ignoring PVP players (which I understand is exactly what some of you want) and will KILL the "meaningful" part of pvp.

I'm open to new suggestions, as I'm not the biggest fan of the current Shardfall design. But I hope if the Shardfall (rare resources, sorry you can't use Single Player to ignore it) model is the best the devs can do, then we stick to it. Because what is proposed in the OP is just another way of saying "I don't want pvp to be integrated with pve" which for me is a non-starter.

 

I would also agree that "you have to be a sheep" is doomed to failure, and if this game were not 100% consensual, it would be saying exactly that. However, there are viable alternatives to pvp.

You can hire other players to pvp for you.
You can trade directly with pvp players.
You can buy indirectly (via vendors) with pvp players.
You can hire someone to gather in pvp zones for you.

This is very different than other MMO's but it's also more interesting and part of the player driven regional economy. As a trader or crafter, this should be very exciting, even if you have zero interest in pvp.

 

Personally I think resources can be a big draw for bringing in PVE'ers at least for those that are crafters. Sure, just having a gain in resources won't convince someone who hates PVP to enter, but those that want increased returns that are not completely opposed to PVP will enter. Adding a King of the Hill or Leaderboards feature would be far less effective at bringing PVEers in. The "competitive" side of PVP is a mostly a trait for PVPers. Although I am fine with there being mechanics like this it will be very ineffective at bringing PVEers over into the PVP. In fact, its emphasis and encouragement for continuous killing might actually push some away.

I think having RP overtones toward PVP would be the most effective draw for PVPers. The use of quests and structure to small PVP romps which lead in to more overarching story driven would entice many people who are usually only interested in this kind of play in single player. This can be a hard balance since some PVPers like that deathmatch style of play instead of the slowly escalating situation in a true RP PVP encounter. However, if quest systems are built right I can see many PVE type dipping their toes in this thrill and becoming more and more involved. Sieges and large scale battles can work very nicely into some RP Quest style PVP, but there would need also be some role for non-combative character to be involved to be inclusive.

Regardless though there will always be some that simply don't want to get involved.

 

Using the economy thread conditions of macroeconomics.

Increased abundance does not translate to cha-ching. Someone must gather the rare resources. This puts themselves at risk of attack. Someone must kill the rare creatures. Killing creatures is PvE and attempting to PvE while PvP is a well known risk.

Then, once you have the rare items from the hex you must make it out of there.

The factor that should be watched is the fabrication of the rare not the fabrication of the nod that yields the rare. They have the metrics in place to data mine this and see how much PvP is gathering in the 5% hexs vs the 95% hexes.

So what is more important is the purpose of PvP and the fun of PvP. Keep these as the main goal if the 5% hexes and the economy will be tuned into the correct place.

 

You can do all of that in Ultima Online too; and PvP is consensual there now too. And we've already seen how that works out. Sooner or later people who want people to be "sheep" are going to have to realise the other side already knows what they think about any system which only uses them in that role, and even if they individually don't suffer directly because of it, they resent that being the idea itself... Just as the knowledge of injustice is concerning even if you personally are not a victim of it. They might trade for the resources they need that are generated by it, just as people will buy morally dubious products, but they aren't going to like that this is the case.

Understand it or not, you have to at least have the pretence of valuing the people you kill, otherwise apart from masochists, who is going to sign up for abuse?

As I've said elsewhere, your zones are just going to end up as deserted as Felucca yet again until they at least accommodate something more than imbalanced killing. I suggested two systems, one for you to have meaningful PvP between yourselves, and a more structured idea which would tempt in crafters and other "sheep" without having them labelled as such. But if you want the same old open and disrespectful combat, with attendant posts like we've seen recently about what PvPers think about "sheep", you're just repeating history's mistakes yet again. And I'm somewhat surprised to see the Devs here are considering it... hence why I sketched out the problem, and how I might tackle it... I'm not saying remove open PvP zones. But I am saying move the resources elsewhere, or you won't have anyone in the zones looking for them who isn't capable of fighting back.

 

If I put up a request on the job board for X# of rare resources. Does it imply that those resources will come from PvP?

Of course it doesn't, but it does seem to use that logic with discussing these 5% areas.

There are going to be PvE sources for these rares. PvP will not have a choke hold on them. They did not say if there will be a balance of the "cha-ching" in perspective of the PvE source and the PvP source. They have only said that the 5% areas will have increases abundance. What actually makes it into a players inventory and out of the hex is what matters.

If they are balanced, or only slightly weighted to PvP, there is no harm. If PvP has the majority of the market then I can agree with the concerns. At that point is when the sheep will feel required to enter PvP.

As long as their is relative balance. Those players that wish to never open themselves to PvP will always have the PvE route. And now we have the jobs board route for those same players to have another layer of choice to keep from becoming sheep.

 

The first suggestion isn't for PvErs, it's to compensate the PvPers for losing the extra rare resources in their zone. I'm not opposed to them having a point to their pure killing at all, but I do think that it should be a purely PvP reward in turn too. Possibly even co-related to crafting in that it gives access to a pure PvP buff. Leave the Shardfalls all recording individual prowess; But crafters for PvE shouldn't feel any sense of apartheid from not partaking, because that just fosters community mistrust.

Yup. The play style simply isn't anywhere near as popular as it's adherents believe; especially when there's the risk those taking part will get mocked on the forums for it. So the second suggestion I made was a way to bring them in by appealing to the qualities of MMOs that I sketched out. Give them a sense of progression, construction, engagement in wider themes. Allow them to choose their own engagement level. Yes, that means that PKs aren't getting that Power Rush by forcing "risk" on people... but you can't please everyone, and some play styles just don't work with a wide community. Something has to give, there has to be a compromise of some sort. So giving PvErs a more light hearted or role play structured experience is probably the better approach than just saying "You can get more crafting materials in there". We see that in Felucca, which is largely dead and people still dont go there.

If people really, really do want living zones, they'll accept a compromise. I'm hoping to suggest ways they can.

 

This is the mind set I am going after. "extra rare resources" is potentially a misinterpretation of what is being created.

I say potentially, because you might understand but those that read the wording and the suggestion can easily assume this a PvP favoritism design. I do not believe that is what the devs are saying or intent to create.

Using a PvE example:

PvE hex with resources spawns through out the hex. MOBs are throughout the hex designed to place an effort requirement to gather these resources.

This hex yields 1 resources per minute in the macroeconomic metric.

PvE hex with rare resources spawn in a concentrated area on a hex. A immortal dragon guards the spawns. To kill the dragon is a great challenge. But it's immortal so you have a limited time to gather resources while the dragon is subdued. There is an abundance of rare spawns here. The limiting factor is how long the dragon is down.

This hex yield 1 rare resource per hour in the macroeconomic metric.

This can translate to PvP hexes with easy.

No need for normal resource PvP hex, they can be there but these are not motivators on the level of rares.

PvP example:

PvP hex can have resources spawned throughout as a distraction. The rare resource spawn in abundance in specific areas of the hex that are high action PvP areas. To gather these rares the gatherer must be able to successfully fend off PvP attacks.

This hex yields for resources are likely to be less, they are not in abundance and you are open to PvP. The rare resouces yield 1 rare resource per hour in the macroeconomic mectric.

The balance can be had.

 

I still cannot believe that the devs have not realized the inherent issue with using crafting resources to draw non-PvPers into PvP.

Crafting resources. Not enhanced loot. Not inflated amounts of gold. Not the stuff that'll attract your typical PvE player.

No.

The carrot you're dangling is of use to crafters. The folks who just want to be left alone to run their business.

The (arguably) least combat oriented players that will be in the game.

And y'all are surprised that the PvP players, for the most part, are okay with this as a solution (albeit, in some cases, grudgingly)?

Not only are you supplying them with the sheep they so enjoy massacring without a modicum of challenge... You're ensuring those sheep are the ones with the least interest in combat in general, whether it be PvE OR PvP. Crafting sheep, armed with a Loom Shuttle and a Skinning Knife.

Tremble, PvPers! Tremble in your boots! The crafters are on their way to gum you to death!

Can you hear their bloodthirsty bleats now? Nah, me either.


On a serious note: If this "resource" which hasn't been named yet, if it turns out that this one items is a requirement for a crafter to have success in his chosen trade... You won't see crafters PvPing. You won't see crafters negotiating with PvPers. You won't see crafters paying people to PvP on their behalf.

Because, aside from those affiliated directly with the PvPers, you won't see crafters at all.

 

Are they?

The resources spawn in both PvE and PvP. The crafter does not need to do either. They can use the job board instead.


Option 1: PvE and gather resource.
Option 2: PvP and gather resource.
Option 3: Post Job for X# of resource paying X amount.

It resources are bait to draw non PvP in to PvP it's not a very strong effort to do so.

 

I would read this post but once I seen this I didn't continue to read anymore, obviously this is coming from someone that has never done any sort of PvP in their gaming history. Please do not discourage the staff from making improvements for PvP if you're unaware of how PvP works...

Players are not going to be forced to enter this zone, however the players that are looking for combat etc will venture out in these areas to farm and have the bit of excitement of encountering another player to fight on the way.

Again, please if you do not PvP do not try to cripple the already low PvP population.

 

Rather than cut/paste or just restate the entire point, refer to my response in the "richest 1%" thread. It's as applicable here as it is there.

Many people who prefer not to PvP have no shortage of personal experience with PvP to support that decision. Perhaps if you spent the time to read and take others' viewpoints into consideration, you may realize that. Please do not encourage the staff to make improvements to PvP in order to enhance your experience at the expense of the rest of us - which is the direction that most (not all, but certainly most) of these arguments go.

 

How is making an unsafe area with more risk and more reward hurting "the rest of you" thats part of playing a game. Please do not make this game into what ruined ultima online.

 

The risk you're referring to... PvP. Same as it was in UO. The reward? I can only assume you're talking about the resource being boosted in that zone. Kind of like Powerscrolls in UO. Sounds to me like you're the one arguing in favor of one of the same concepts that "ruined UO".

 

The game was ruined when trammel was introduced.

 

That's a matter of opinion. UO:R was released in 2000, and subscriptions peaked in 2003. From there, they steadily declined. So I counter your opinion that Trammel killed UO with the fact that AoS (released, coincidentally, in 2003) killed UO.

 

Other games released in 2003:

Eve
Runescape
Second Life
Star Wars Galaxies
Final Fantasy XI
Horizons
Ashen Empires
Shadowbane

Probably a few more.

Very few of these games were as heavy PvP as pre-Tram UO. I doubt the PvP crowd was jumping ship for these titles.