Please, please remove the levelling system for a skill based system

There are grinders in every type of system. You will have them in an xp based system also. I don't see that as biased towards a skill based system only. Right now, in this experienced based system, you can grind by buying chunks of salt and craft salt over and over to raise your gathering and/or crafting skills. This generic xp system just makes it too easy and mindless. Also, there are games that have used the usage based advancement in tandem with experience based progression. Take a look at FFXIs system for an example.

You don't have to be a slave to only one type of system but the generic xp system for all skills we currently have could be improved a good bit. At the very least, crafting and gathering xp should be split. Preferably, each crafting and each gathering skill line should have its own xp or be skill/use based.

 

If macroing or "afk-leveling" is the only argument against a use-based system, the merit of that argument falls flat when faced with the reality of all the other methods people have come up with to cheat the system in every game ever made....ever.

 

No matter what game it is someone will find a way to cheat at it, it is just the way it is. And unfortunately it is that way in real life also. I would prefer a use-based system in that if I am always for example using a sword and shield the more I use it the more skilled I should get, and if all of a sudden I decide to pick up a dagger I should not have the same skill level or be able to just apply points to it so that I have it. I like having to earn the different skills through use, and yes there will be people that find a way to macro this which if that is how they want to finish the game fine. They will also be the ones complaining that there is no new content or things to make. I guess in playing RPG's I enjoy the challenge of using or doing something to increase that ability. And through leveling this could offer special abilities for each level you have gained in a specific type. So that you are now level 5 blacksmith and have points to spend and one of the abilities could be that you learn how to make the objects stay sharper longer so to increase the damage.

 

I don't like use-based skill systems. They're silly and grindy. They lead to mages repeatedly casting worthless spells just to get better and people hopping around to get faster. Yuck.

On the other hand, I HATE trainers. I'd rather have use-based than have to a trainer for everything. I can't learn on my own? No one ever masters a skill without a professional teacher? Hate it. Oh well. It'll have to do.

 

Not all use-base systems are like Elder Scrolls.

I don't share the same concerns about people grinding while AFK. There are always ways to deal with that.. as for work arounds as stated people will find ways to cheat any system.. including the one we have now. The discussion is doomed to spin in circles so I won't waste anyone's time with lengthy arguments.

As the opportunity has arisen though I will just take the opportunity to push my idea (linked on the previous page).. which uses both the trainers and earned XP. Feel free to take the time to read it.. it's not a lengthy discussion (though you're welcome to comment).

Trainers will be a bit more involved than now.. but ultimately the results in people just jumping through a few hoops the first time and having to learn where they all are. Once that is out of the way you still have the respec issue. Did I mention I really dislike respec?

 

Just to throw this in there, a freeshard called Angel Island had the Player Justice Unattended Macroing (PJUM) system, where if you were repeatedly doing mundane resource gathering you'd get a captcha. Failing it would flag you grey, and your location would be announced by all town criers. Killing you and throwing your head onto the town crier gave you a small monetary reward. Multiple offenses would end up with the player in jail and eventually suspended/banned, so it wasn't an exploitable system.

Just flag the AFKer for PvP with an inability to turn it off for awhile and boom, AFKing resolved.

 

I have to think the devs are making it easy for us to test all sorts of different skills now, prior to launch, for the good of the game. Finding bugs, seeing what people like, etc. BUT will make it harder upon launch (more expensive? limits on the number of points you can change in a certain time period? making some skills prerequisite for advancement instead of just paying the skill trainer, etc.).

I like the flexibility of the current system but believe the long-term health of the game would be better served if it was harder to swap skills at will. More immersive, a huge incentive to pay for extra character slots, and a reason why you have to interact with others to buy things you can't produce yourself.

 

Who is saying that goal isn't being met? You're assuming that this system is in a finished form for release to the public, and that it's set in stone, as it is NOW... You're forgetting this is "alpha" testing, and that they want us to test everything, so it stands to reason that they would want it to be easy to respec quickly because the next iteration is due out. Which I should remind you that includes "refining" and "production" which you will have to spend your points on, most likely draining away any points you have put into "gathering", so you won't be able to gather, refine AND produce. It's so nice to speculate about systems that aren't in the game yet... Oh sure, for now, you can respec and do it all cheaply, I bet it doesn't remain that way in final release...

So you actually played this game? I'm at production 30, and I didn't get my points in 2 minutes... I neither received my recipes in 2 minute, sure I purchased the first few and figured out the rest (discovered), and I have never presumed that it will be this easy in final release. The trainer is unlocking your abilities as you level up (you need to choose what to unlock, it's not automatic), as you don't get to the top instantly, I still have abilities open, so I must go out and earn more points to fill them, either by crafting at a table (if I have the resources) or by gathering those resources. It's still a "use" system no matter how you garnish it, I must use my axe or sickle or skinning knife or pickaxe or anyone of the various tables, at this point I can use them all, but it has never been promised to me that it would remain this way...

 

I beg your pardon? I am usually the one reminding people the game is pre-alpha and I most certainly have not forgotten it nor chose to ignore it.

What you are reading into my comments is that I'm saying that particular goal isn't met. I did not say that. I said respec contradicts that goal. In terms of implementation, repec allows you a relatively easy path to circumvent the limits that are intended create player inter dependency.

However! Inter-dependency is already achieved by other means. As such, that goal is already met even in pre-alpha to a certain extent.. but it is not because of a forced mechanic.. but mostly due to emergent player behavior as a result of tasks being tedious enough to be off putting to those who don't truly enjoy them or have the patience for them. Whether skill progression is use-based or skill point based isn't important in this regard. What is important is that players who are not interested in certain tasks are given reason to be less interested in them. IE even a master miner has to go out and mine which takes time and energy.

The result is that players who don't care about being self sufficient, will rely on other players. Players who do want to be self sufficient, have a relatively easy path to do so through respec without needing extra characters. Jump through a few hoops, know there the trainers are.. pay money..= in-game path to independence from other players.. contrary to the design goals of the skill system.

What you don't seem to get here.. is that pre-alpha or post launch.. respec is respec. Yeah, post launch there will be more hoops to go through.. it will cost more money.. but the end result is the same. Hoops + money + respec = who cares about player inter-dependency?

 

It does bring up an interesting dilemma. A trainer or mentor is required for a lot of skills. Yes, you can learn most things on your own, but improving your craft is very hard without guidance. Simple example is baking or cooking. Its not hard to follow an exact recipe, but experimentation is very hard without a deeper understanding of why something works the way it does. Its why there are chef/baking schools. My grandmother was self taught and probably better than 95% of trained chefs, but she also was forced to learn to cook at the age of 9. Decades gave her the experience that a few years of culinary school provides.

So if there was a merger, could learn by grinding low level stuff, or boost with trainers, similar to how elder scrolls works, it would probably create a good balance. Unless there is another option you would like to recommend, as it seems you don't like either option if I understood your post.

 

Likewise "Well, they're all ****" isn't an argument against "This is ****".

Many people have voiced that they'd prefer a system that doesn't requires mindless busy work in order to advance. The problem with grind-based games isn't that people will macro them, it's that macroing them is preferable to actually playing the game. Look at the percentage of single player games that require grinding to complete the main story and where released in the last 10 years. I would bet a $10 item that less than 20% of non-F2P, single (or coop) rpgs, and in the majority of those cases it will be grinding to pass arbitrary money gates, not for XP or gear. Even EVE, god of player-driven MMO experiences, avoided usage based advancement because it breaks the economy. Usage based systems don't reward players for playing well, working with others, or crafting a epic story, they reward players with lots of free time, a high tolerance for menial labor and a natural resistance to carpal tunnel. I used to work at a factory were we would kill to get folks with those qualities.

 

I see where you are coming from, but there is definitely a difference between active skill gain and mind-numbing time sink.

 

You make it sound so none shull aunt, just build a class miner and get 1000 ores, then instantly turn them into a class smelter to turn those ores into 250 ingots, then instantly turn them into a class blacksmith to make the best stuff out there (a total assumption at this point, wo/events)... You forgot to turn them into a class weaver, miller, tailor. tanner (to make all the straps, bindings you'll need)... Not to mention the 1000 cotton and wood needed too... all that gathering takes time...

I understand your position, and it goes from one extreme to the other (pre-alpha to post launch), do you really think this Dev team would put up with that behavior, by making it easy to respec? It may cost 5k - 10k to respec each time, they could allow you to respec every 6 months, that would take years to respec each stage... Heck, I have 3 chr slots and I don't think that's enough to have everything, if I wanted to be independent, I would stick to the "offline" version...

I like the direction this game is going in, I hope to see more direction just like it...

 

I've never met an MMO that could tell the difference. Usage based skill increase works fine in a 40 hr experience, but if want someone logging 1000 hrs on your title, you are going to have to either create epic levels of content, or slow the players down with time sinks to prevent them from "completing" your game too quickly. Honestly, I've never seen a better usage-based skill system since Microprose's Darklands and that came out in 1991. Sure it's grindable, but there are harsh penalties for over-grinding and advancement is as much about exploring as it is about combat and crafting. You find a way to make a system as solid as that work in an MMO and I would sign on in an instant.

 

Here's part of the problem.. we already know they'll give you enough points to master one set of skills. So it's entirely possible that say.. instead of mastering 1 line.. mine-smelt-smith.. you could master all the harvesting you want.. and probably quite a bit of smelting. Do all that.. stockpile a ton.. then respec for what you need.. process.. etc..

5k-10k.. that may be effective early on but established players will eventually save up enough to where it's not that painful. Careful planning is all you need and there are enough dedicated crafters out there who want to do everything. I don't doubt for a second we'll be seeing guides on the most effective craft/respec builds.

The dev team can't put in something like a 6 month timer for a couple reasons. 1: What if you only want to respec one skill.. you tried something.. decided you don't like it and want to move on to the next.. don't like that either.. now you have to wait 6 months.. or even a week.. that's painful. 2: The design goal that demands the current system (as is) to have a respec ability wouldn't allow it. Players need to be able to explore all the skills without feeling like they need multiple characters.

It's possible they went this route due to time constraints.. I also no they consider it easier to balance than a use-base system. This is partly how I arrived at my hybrid system in the first place.

A use-base system allows for unused skill to decay, making room for new skills. That flexibility allows for that #2 design goal without the need to respec. Plus if you want access to 100 master skills.. you have to master the 100 skills.. not 10 and then respec as is convenient for you.

Anyway.. we have what we have. I don't like it. I offered my alternative that builds on the current system but I don't really feel like it's up for debate unless the devs feel the current system becomes more or less broken before launch.

Most rational people aren't going to abuse respec that badly. Just those of us who are insane enough to want to do all that crafting work for "free". I suppose one way to mitigate that is to make the base cost of a certain amount of resources less than the cost to respec. Someone would really have to stockpile to make the cost worth it just for crafting.

 

I guess the fundamental issue is why would you need to respec? If you need it to swap around a few points to test new skills, then just restrict respeccing to the points since your last level and let the player shift those around at will at any trainer. If you want to let players change skill trees, but not swap back and forth, put a cooldown on respeccing that scales exponentially, respeccing 5 points takes 5 minutes to cool down but 50 points takes 5 days, and the cooldown is based on total respecced points in the last 14 days.

 

Regardless of the differences of what many of us would like or wouldn't like, whether it be skill based or the current system or something else. I don't see them changing it, since RG has said they expect to be feature complete by the end of summer and hope to release the end of the year. I think what we got is what we will have now at release with some polish here and there to make it function more smoothly as they progress.

 

I don't know exactly what I want. That's the truth. But I know some things that leave a sour taste in my mouth. One of them is trainers required. Trainers giving a bonus is alright. But required? Yuck. I've learned a myriad skills in my life with never a lesson (as have many others). Between exprimentation and books, you should be able to learn most things. Required trainers irks me and I hate traveling from town to town trying to find the right guy for the skill I need. There's nothing I like about it.

The other thing I'm wary of, is use-based skills. My exprience here is mostly limited to Eldar Scrolls, but that was enough to really turn me off of it. Jumping and running constantly just to get the skill I need. Casting spells when they are completely unnecessary, just to bring up my skill with that magic. I don't like it.

The current system without trainers required to unlock skills would be a good compromise for me. I don't see that happening of course, but it's the best option, for me.

 

Oh look shardsonline play test this weekend *shameless plug*

 

Under the current system.. you must have respec in order to allow players to explore all skills without needing additional characters. This has been a major design goal since the beginning. Which is fine. It's just how they've gone about implimenting it that I don't particularly care for.