The Value of Gold

I have one major reservation with minting custom coin for towns. The capacity or lack there of to mint said coin in enough quantity to actually be useful as a viable currency. Even within their own town.

Let's say we have a metropolis with 100 people living in it. How much coin would you have to mint for all 100 to collect enough of it to be able to use it regularly to pay for goods and services just in that town? How much ore would have be mined and smelted to mint that much coin? How many working hours would it take?

You would need some kind of NPC minter or money changer that would literally convert coin to custom coin of the same material.

 

So what do you want, Bowen? I guess your driving for a strictly "regional" economic model, which means each region would only accept their own currency, and that there would be some kind of "exchange" rate to deal with like in U7 pt2 (I thought it was very diffecult to deal with, so I just stockpiled each currency, and since there was no banks I kept my currency stash at an Inn in each region)... In SotA they would need to have separated banks, with separate currencies (Gold BTW, is just a name for currency, it's not even coins, it's just a number)...

The valuation of precious metals and commodities is altogether different... In a "Free" market, players have the "Freedom" to set their own prices as they wish... If they set them too high, they get no sales, set them too low and they take the chance of some unscrupulous person buying just to relist at a higher markup (I don't see that happening in the game, so I'm not worried, it's just speculation)... I do see some outrageous pricing going on, and I can't imagine anyone buying at those prices (I can't afford it, maybe they're selling to their friends or something)...

The game could always "set" the prices by doing away with players ability to change the recomended selling price, that way we could all just accept it, and forget it...

 

I'm not especially pushing for regional currency. Just thinking about how it might work If we did have it. I know some people want it and if we did have it I might have a little fun with it.. but honestly I think it's more complexity than SotA needs and a lot of people would prefer a single standard currency.

 

I would like to see multiple currencies. However, just gold could work too. For me, it is really the economy that needs to work. The currency is just an instrument of the economy.

I think the economy would work better if it was based on more than player interactions driving the market, by also considering NPCs as 'living' entities producing and using items in the economy.

To avoid the cotton farming (creating excess supply) or cotton hording (creating excess demand) scenarios above, what if:

1: NPC merchants react to the market by changing prices offered for raw crafting goods based on supply and demand in the market. This would provide diminishing returns to 'farmers' of a specific item, driving highly supplied items toward commodity prices.
2: NPC crafters take advantage of market supplies, driving crafting towards using items on the market that are in most supply. This would use up the excess supply of a commodity on the market, creating a new demand for it in time.
3: Where there is low or no player demand to buy NPC crafted items (a common problem in MMOs), those items have a 'shelf life' and vanish from the market after time, to model that goods are being sold to NPCs or otherwise exported out of the local economy. This help balance supply with demand.

If the NPC economy is non-participatory, the total economy seems much more subject to the influence of player actions.

 

That's actually a pretty big issue with me.. treating NPCs like.. well.. NPCs. Some time ago I remember a similar idea that NPC merchants prices should react to prices on PC vendors. I would plug the thread but it's in Dev+

The basic gist of the idea is that if PC vendors sold cotton for X amount.. NPCs would compete by lowering their price for cotton to same amount or close to it. If PC prices came down.. NPC prices came down.. if PC prices went up.. NPC prices would go up.. etc. Of course an NPC's supply should also be a factor. I also think the NPC market should simulate regular activity. NPCs should sell off excess to the world market and likewise restock from the world market now and then.. the trick is how often that should happen. Maybe once a "week" (every 7 hours?) or so.

Farming of resources isn't something I consider to be a bad thing. Many crafters will want to be able to buy in bulk from trusted suppliers. The same will be true of any resource. Very few care to be completely independent. It's a lot of work.. and I believe the crafting system is intended to work like that. If I'm a master blacksmith, I don't want to have to go out and collect and tan my own hides for a few straps. but I don't want to hunt them down every time either.. so I'll find a tanner I trust and place bulk orders on a regular basis. Good suppliers of resources will make a good living.

 

By solo game, do you mean online solo? If so, then I think the economy driven by the public is reasonable. The player is him/herself in multi and solo mode. They are essentially the same and can interact with vendors, NPC and etc. If in multiplayer, a vendor is set up with various items for sale, that vendor will be interactive with both modes, at least that is how I understand it.
Are you suggesting that vendors be not accessible in the solo mode?
In either case, my contention is that there should be no NPC sales of any items that can be produced or gathered by avatars in general.

 

I mean solo online and offline.
If I break my sword and need a replacement, how much will it cost?
If an NPC vendor sells a standard sword for 50 gold, and a player vendor sells a slightly better sword for 100,000 gold, I have a choice. I can buy the cheaper sword and get back to my adventure. If you remove NPC vendors, my only choice becomes grinding 100,000 gold.

I am not suggesting player vendors not be available. I'm saying NPC vendors should not be removed.

 

That's a great point. But that's why single player and all the online modes are separate?

When we think about single player online, the economy is what it is. If you wanted to avoid inflation of any kind and be in a static world, you'd want to stay in single player offline.

 

I see. Let's push all the solo players offline. Problem solved.


But coins: It doesn't matter what you call them, or how many denominations or tiers there are, really.
But most civilizations that had coins, had different types, so it would give New Britannia a more realistic feel with no downside that I can see.

 

Risk vs. Reward. If you don't want a dynamic or challenging economy, don't go online where things change. We can't make mechanics for the lowest common denominator and expect to also challenge people. It doesn't work that way.

Agreed. I don't think there's a downside to multiple coins. I'm in favor of that.

 

I'm not even going to pretend that I know much about economics although I always look at things with a skeptical eye. I would hope that the NPC's in the game are used to curb runaway pricing. I think also that the world loot will be dropping random player made gear and if you are in single player online you have a good chance of getting decent items as drops. If not message me Frank and we can work out something, as I really am not into profit or price gouging.

 

Kind of off topic, but not too much: speaking of "swimming", I don't think people should be able to swim while carrying 10,000 gold pieces - they should sink like a rock (without special gear maybe)... In other words, when will we see some progress towards more realistic player vs. water physics?

 

I tend to think this also. I think gold and other items should weigh up realistically in many circumstances. If they are in the shardfall and looting and everyone is paying the ransom, eventually if you are a good pvp'r lol, you should be overburdened with weight. Same thing for swimming, gold, heavy armor, heavy weight inventory, should make you sink.

 

Your reasoning is sound! Also, I think armor and weapons should take durability damage if they're exposed to salt water. Not a lot, but some... To discourage armed and armored characters from spending too much time in there. If you want to go for a swim, you should be mostly nude, or wearing special gear. This forces players to plan realistically for a water expedition... And adds yet more realism.

 

If the player economy is supporting the 100,000 gold price, (and there are no NPC vendors), then the online singleplayer will be able to sell his swords for 100,000 gold too. So I don't see this as an issue. Let the economy move, and live in it. that's the point of an online player-driven economy! Also, online single-player should have access to the bulletin boards, where requests are made. So even though they never see other player's face to face, they can have conversations with them through these and writable books.. it would be as if, they were in the same world, but just happen to not be online at the same time.

 

So, if I need supplies, I can grind my crafting skill to raise money to buy things on the inflated MMO economy.
That takes me out of the adventure and story loop.
No thanks.
I'd rather have less than perfect equipment readily available at NPC vendors.
It was a good point that monsters will be dropping player-made gear. Perhaps that will be a good supply.

People need to consider ALL modes of the game, and not just brush off the modes they don't care about.

However, this thread is about the value of gold.
I apologize for drifting off topic.

It would make sense for currency in the game to be based on how available ore is.

 

I fully agree with you Sir Frank. We don't want any of the game modes to feel secondary to the others. Each should feel equally playable in its own right. I don't think you can play a single player character as only an adventurer or only a crafter though.. since there's no one else in the world with you, shouldn't you expect to need to do both?

 

We should be able to play the story as an adventurer only. I should not have to craft, if NPC or PC vendors sell basic equipment.
If NPC vendors are removed, my choice then is to craft my own gear (making it a grindy game) or buy from player vendors that could have inflated prices ( forcing me to grind gold, making it a grindy game).

 

I agree with Sir Frank.

Player crafting is great and I think makes the game better, but it should never IMO have the effect of
- making basic goods that should be obtainable unobtainable
- making basic goods that should be affordable unaffordable

Its ultimately not an economy simulator. Price variability is an interesting aspect of gameplay, but taking it too far could create unrealism, like eggs costing 500 gold each, because that's what players happen to be selling them at.

I think NPC prices can help correct the player market and prevent it from entering silly territory.

 

Players will not be making gold coin with mined gold ore. The value of gold coins must be related to the amount of coins available to support the desired economic activity. Prices will go up relative to the ease of acquiring the gold coins. A central bank could monitor the total coin in circulation, and adjust via gold sinks or issuing more coin. Where the problem with inflation usually starts is the fact that if mobs drop coin, these are usually created at the moment of looting. Unless there is a matching gold sink, rapid inflation ensues causing all the complaints about high prices. In actuality, the prices are not high, they are simply reflecting the amount of coin in circulation and the ease of acquiring it.