POT Choice to remove Single Player Online Mode

The approach has come off as, my money so I get to tell you how to make the game. Or as @E n v y said in a different thread, if he could choose where the devs spend his money he knows where it would go.

After the open discussion, and yes I agree that is the best approach, I gathered that it's more of a fundamental disagreement on how open PvP is implemented. You're attempting to leverage your purchase as a right to choose how the devs spend your money.

The topic of how open PvP is implemented across the modes is a topic I missed. I haven't gone back to read the dev common (or watch the vids) because I will probably /smh. I can't fathom why SPO needs/want access to a Shardfall.

Taking your football example and comparing it to an arena or battle ground PvP zone. Visiting the stadium when there is no game you get an empty venue. No hotdogs no beer but you can run out on the field or up and down the stairs. Visit the stadium when a game is on and you either are on the field or you are spectating from the stands. SPO fits with this.

A Shardfall doesn't fit IMO because reverting the zone to not have the perks of a Shardfall makes it an random zone out in the field, but it looks cool on the overhead map.

For a POT to fit that example it would be about house access and vendor access. Is that something a person living in your POT would want? Cut off access to their lot and their vendors. That pulls a potentially large customer base, huge economic impact.

Going with that, could someone go into a PvP POT in OPO get to someone's lot then use the lot commands to prevent PvP? (lock the gates and doors) Is the next step to request lot renters in a PvP POT have a reduced set of commands

 

No, I'm simply pointing out that Rats Nest exists because I spent that money. That money can be spent by the devs to develop whatever they want. The point I'm making is that I didn't buy Rats Nest to be a single player side show, I bought it to be a PVP wonderland.

My expectation is that it will be a PVP zone that people can't skip through just because they want to.

Well let me tell you why, because they don't want to be stopped from seeing "content". An answer that seems totally reasonable to me on the surface, until you realize that what they are really saying is that they don't want the shardfall to be PVP (for them). Which is understandable, but it goes against the lore and it devalues pvp for everyone that actually likes it.

Actually it doesn't fit at all. Using that example, other people can still enter the stadium, cook hot dogs, etc... SPO is not something that fits the real world, not ever. So it's a bad example from that point of view. What I was trying to show was that when you have a "GAME" like we do in SOTA, everyone needs to play by the same rules. In the case of PVP, these are very specific rules that start and end with the warning message that you have to accept before you enter. In the case of Single Player Online, that warning means nothing because people are not capable of attacking you.

I had a hard time following what exactly you were asking through parts of this quote. But I will say that yes, the developers did at one time mention that they thought lot permissions were too restrictive in pvp zones and so they might be different from pve zones. I happen to disagree with that train of thought (which is another discussion).

There's also the interesting FACT that picking locks and picking pockets (in pvp) is going to be a reality soon, perhaps as soon as R24 (take a look at the subterfuge skill tree in R23 right now!). So what's that means for pvp? I don't know but I'm happy we're going to find out.

 

Your purchase gives you access to the POT owner commands. It does not give you access to the lot commands that someone else occupies. The content of the zone is not yours unless some how you convince every resident to give over all sovereignty of their lot. It does not give you control over other players consent to PvP. No where else can any one player choose what mode other players are in. The devs have a scaling system for each mode and SPO in PvP zones has been decided but we don't know how they will scale. POT ownership only goes so far and controlling someone else's selective player mode is a pretty far reach.

That's your issue with SotA open PvP. Not everyone agrees that it devalues PvP, or at least that PvP deserves that level of focus. The devs seem to be OK with open PvP and SPO/FPO. You are attempting to fight that fight under the guise of "this is my land, the rules of PvP are mine, not open PvP" The POT owner's ability to create a PvP designed for the tastes of the POT residence is a worthy topic. But I don't think SPO/FPO ban is part of that.

Currently PvP POTs are open PvP which has no rules. (Within the confines of the ToS/EULA)

It does fit, but for the sake of avoiding the TL: DR train down a long tunnel leading to no where, I didn't elaborate.

That will be an interesting thread. Lock picking houses and other locks on a lot. I'm betting it won't be allowed.

 

@Baron Drocis Fondorlatos

I think you may have taken my comment the wrong way for that I am sorry.............however your comments are very inviting and they do deserve a response. This will be my last post on the matter.

Because you clicked the upgrade button?
I kind of chose not to click that button too many times because of my concern over potential lag.....you know that latency thing your always talking about.
Its nice to see you are happy to be the guinea pig........congrats. Now all you need to do is fill the PoT.

Trying to save you from yourself as you have dropped a shed load of cash into a PvP PoT and it would be kind of cool if it actually succeeds.

Once again it was just some friendly advice......but if you don't like the flavour of it i'm very sorry........ I will just get the popcorn and watch to see what happens.

Never said I was.......just been doing it half my life I guess.

.........hmmm Ok whatever that means........... Isn't one of your rules that no one can attack you?

I think I have about 7 PoTs at the moment...........I know 3 of them are definitely PvP......might buy some more, dunno we will see. Different locations of course..... location location location and all that jazz.

Cool

You're welcome

Come again? didn't think you wanted anyone to attack you?.........what is this real PvP you speak of?

Should always be careful of what you wish for.

Glad you cleared that up........wish you the very best of luck.

 

@Baron Drocis Fondorlatos

Maybe you want to rename topic and modify OP, since you want to:
"PvP POT option to limit players to MPO only"
?

 

That might be a more political way of saying it, yes. I think we're past that.

 

Only if they want to live there.

There are only two rules in Rats Nest. 1. Pay your taxes on time. 2. Don't attack me so I can move around the town and conduct business. Pretty simple stuff. But with that many expected players, I don't think I'm going to be in a "safe zone" any more than anyone else is. I just expect that law to provide me some wiggle room with the locals.

I also don't expect everyone that likes PVP to live in Rats Nest, just the people that are pickin up what I'm puttin down. I also expect Rats Nest to have a very healthy transient community.

You're invited to Rats Nest either way. (as is everyone, but I have a healthy respect for you as someone that enjoys pvp)

I'm currently entertaining the idea of having approximately 700+ lots available in Rats Nest.

 

I say we give Dorcis what he wants. I am totally OK with his demands.

 

If entire rulesets are changed for how much we spend. How much do I need to spend to have Rats Nest condemned for health code violations and overcrowding?

 

If it does not cost a lot of developer time and effort which is needed elsewhere, I wouldn't object to letting him try it out as a proof of concept. I don't think he is entitled to change the rules for PVP zones simply because he spent a lot of money for the POT, but I want the game to be successful and appeal to PVPers and PVEers alike. If it turns out that PVPers love the SPO ban and flock to the town, then we have added something to the game which raises its appeal for a lot of players.

I personally think that Drocis is mistaken in thinking that it would be good for his town, but I may be wrong. And if I'm right, Drocis has already said he wouldn't mind it if Rats Nest becomes a ghost town. So it's worth a try.

I know there are folks who object to having any areas of the game closed to SPO mode on principle. That remains a barrier.

 

This is my favorite post ever. I may have to put this quote up on the Rats Nest website as a testimonial.

 

I'm not entitled. I'm just the sole proprietor. I'm not trying to demand anything. I'm just strongly asking.

 

SotA is a selective multiplayer game.
All of the game has been designed to be playable in all of the game-modes.
Enter POTs.
People paying to own a town should NOT expect their town to work differently than the rest of the entire game!
Devs are designing the entire game to be playable in all game-modes.
Therefore, POTs should be designed in the same way, and owners should plan accordingly.
It's foolhardy to buy a town, and then say, *but my town is Nevernever Land, so its residents can fly with fairy dust and thinking happy thoughts.*
I understand the trepidations regarding PvP with all the game-modes, but this is a core game design concept.
It makes sense to argue the design concept in principal, but not to expect individual zones to operate on individual design concepts. The game could never support 'exceptions' like this without falling apart at the seams.

 

I have lost track of the real game-play concern of the thread.

What is the specific concern for a single player wandering around a multi-player POT again?

Is it a game mechanic concern whereby one player is causing a real disadvantage, measurable loss, or griefing to another player? What is the actual grief scenario the programmers need to address?

 

Your want to play single player online mode in my POT is hurting PVP. If my want to play multiplayer in single player online mode was hurting PVE, you can bet you'd want something changed.

It's not reasonable to assume that my POT created solely for PVP is somehow supposed to also support PVE and single player people, if I don't wish it to. I feel very strongly about this. I think imposing single player PVE mechanics that hurt PVP on my POT is an extremely unfair circumstance that I just can't accept. 98% of the world in Shroud of the Avatar is not PVP and some of you guys are worried about this little island of PVP and the thought that you might not be able to go there in single player mode. I find that to be a very selfish act on the part of people that already have so much control of the world.

 

The main concern is not playing that only go in single player online mode, the main concern is players that impact my PVP world by staying in single player online mode. This is about creating a fair and competitive pvp environment and giving my POT the opportunity to have more social situations by not having players opt out of multiplayer mode because of the PVP risk.

 

I know you're not referring to me specifically here, and I really do understand your concern. I hope the Devs are looking at this thread to help them decide if there's something to this argument. I actually agree with many of your opinions about the game and how it should work (including combat/leveling aspects) ;-)

But as the game stands, the online economy is designed to be shared between MPO and SPO modes, so part of the game's economy is and will be inside your POT, which means part of the SPO economy is inside your POT. Maybe if it were possible to request your POT to have a stand-alone economy that didn't mix with the rest of the game-world, you might have a shot at implementing this request, but otherwise, I don't think this is as simple as you think it is.

I really find the concept you're arguing for quite intriguing, but I'm just not sure how complicated it would really be to implement/balance with the rest of the entire game, which is being designed to work in all modes.

What will crafters in your town do, if they don't own their own crafting benches, and can't switch to SPO mode? Will they just be killed and looted all the time until they give up and decide to move out? So many problems I see with this idea..

 

You're bringing up a very good argument here. You're right, the two economies are connected (unfortunately). So if you divide them, you're creating an area of the game that potentially would have an impact on single player online mode. HOWEVER, that impact is much larger right now for people that want to PVP, the entire game is PVE and basically a glorified friends only mode type of multiplayer. So for me, when I look at this through the eyes of a PVP playingstyle, the game is so unbalanced from that perspective, it doesn't really feel like this is going to impact much of anything at a macro level.

If we focus on only the part about single player online being locked out of the Rats Nest economy, you're dead on. But I don't think we should ignore the rest of the world. PVP players only interested in PVP are essentially locked out of 98% of the world's economy unless they're willing to travel to places where the risk level becomes very very low. In this sense, I don't think the argument that single player online folks are somehow being treated unfairly is valid.

Well for one I'm not going to build open crafting areas in Rats Nest, nor will I have community NPC buildings because I believe players will do their crafting in homes. I also believe that player crafters will appreciate not having to compete with NPC's inside the Rats Nest economy. Imagine if you're the only crafter that makes swords in Rats Nest? No NPC's and no other players? Everyone would know you by name, and appreciate the work you did. So in some ways I'm trying to provide the BEST place to be a crafter.

I also think this creates a lot of opportunities for players to create their own "secure" crafting (table) areas that they make available for rent to other players. I also think that this creates a multiplayer environment where players will buy common items and resources (think coal and feathers) from other NPC and non-pvp POTs and bring them to Rats Nest to sell and trade at a marked up price. This is all very healthy for a true player environment, but the real "crafting" will probably be done outside of Rats Nest.

There are a lot of questions that I can't answer though because I don't know how much support the developers are going to give me. For example, are guard towers going to be formidable against 2 or 3 players at a time? Or will guard NPC's be worthless against the intellect and strength of one Avatar? Will someone going into a Shardfall retain their PVP flag when they exit the Shardfall? Will that flag be retained for a meaningful amount of time? These are the types of questions that I just can't answer and the devs haven't appeared to design yet. But I'm committed to making Rats Nest the best PVP area in the game, and I think I have a good start, we'll just have to keep building on that as time goes on.

 

It's not hurting all PvP. Lets be a little more precise here. It's hurting full open PvP. You are looking for a weakness in their stance on PvP starting with PvP POTs.

No zone in the game forces full open PvP. Selective multiplayer is always available. They might as well globally set OPO once you flag open PvP if they let you set that for your PvP POT.

There are other ways to get people out into OPO instead of forcing OPO on anyone that flags. Forcing OPO places a barrier to PvP something they have been trying to prevent. They want PvP to be easy to cross over and jump right in.

 

The argument, the PVP argument, regardless of its flavors still ends up in the same place it seems. Full, Open, full loot PVP. Or...a game I will never play. BDF, you're opinion has been noted. "A glorified friends only mode." We get it, you want a mode where everyone in it is FULL, Open PVP that is not so easy to escape. But think about what you're asking. Most people playing this game, would not enter into that mode...ever. And any attempts by the devs to force me into a play mode I do not prefer will have me logging off and uninstalling the game. I can sympathize that you prefer a different kind of game. Not better, just different. And i am completely for you getting exactly what you want...as long as it does not change the game for me.