Interesting (Splitting Single-Player from Multiplayer?)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Poor game design, Feb 17, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Cinder Sear

    Cinder Sear Avatar

    Messages:
    2,576
    Likes Received:
    3,836
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    Spite
    Who's angry? :)

    I actually totally agree with this method. fwiw
     
  2. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Well, perhaps...

    I mean, the only reason you know that the game has MMO like elements (which of course it does) is because we can play it and the devs have told us this. The Bard's Tale could be just as much an MMO at this point and we wouldn't know it because they never say anything. It's unlikely, but that's a point that I think is important.

    Portalarium has said that they are going to make a single player version of the game that stands up as a real single player game. They've explained how they plan to do that. But I agree with you that the difference between THAT game and what we have now would be large.

    Still, Portalarium is not launching THAT game on July 28th, they're launching it sometime after. So it's not impossible that the game you're looking for won't exist. Therefore, it's perfectly acceptable for them to sell THAT game in my opinion. Assuming they have every intention of executing a single player offline game that isn't just a single player MMO - which again they have always said that was the plan.
     
  3. Grave Dragon

    Grave Dragon Avatar

    Messages:
    1,406
    Likes Received:
    3,116
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lost in the Nether.
    I misinterpreted the tone, it's that menacing looking sabertooth in your avatar I think. Angry cat needs to meet angrier dog imo, plus... I'm mildly alergic.:D
     
  4. HoustonDragon

    HoustonDragon Avatar

    Messages:
    1,526
    Likes Received:
    4,399
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Going offtopic a minute here, the issue about the single player game stuff (and this is speaking as an uber-Ultima lore nerd who loves the details and minutiae) is that a lot of the perceived expectations have been an Ultima 7-esque world with the strong storyline, characters, companions, etc. Are we getting that? I don't think so YET, but I haven't fully given out hope that we won't see it. Since a lot of the single player/story elements are intentionally kept out for now, it's impossible to fully gauge the final impression of the game.

    Speaking as someone who really ONLY gives the most care about the single player stuff, we also need to be at least reasonable to wait and see how the July soft "launch" does, and play through the story elements at that point. I recognize we may not end up with the perfect game, but if I can still get an enjoyable and well written RPG, that's all I really want.
     
  5. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    If people wait until launch and then say "this game stinks I don't like it" well they're entitled to do that. But just as it wouldn't make sense to do that to the Bard's Tale right now, it doesn't make sense to do that here in SOTA.

    However, I think it's a great idea to test the game and give feedback on what people like and don't like right now. It's too late to give that feedback after launch, that doesn't do any good. But feedback should be actionable and based on the reality of where we are in development. The devs have said that they haven't layered in the narrative of the game on purpose and that they aren't doing that until later. So complaining that the narrative is not in yet seems like a waste of time to me.

    The Bard's Tale may not have a narrative in yet either, and may not have it in for years, we wouldn't know because we're not really QAing that game. I know it's frustrating to have to wait, but that's really the only reasonable thing to do, unless you have specific actionable feedback.
     
    HoustonDragon likes this.
  6. Shadow of Light Dragon

    Shadow of Light Dragon Avatar

    Messages:
    309
    Likes Received:
    768
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Weyrmount
    I suspect there are a few people who think that all the SP people are interested in for a good SP experience is how the narrative plays out, which isn't the case. Of course there can be feedback on the story elements that are present right now, but it's impossible to give feedback on the actual gameplay experience as the offline mode isn't out yet.

    Most we can do is give suggestions on what people would like to see, or what we expect to see, and I don't think SotA lacks for this type of feedback in the SP offline threads.
     
  7. Shadow of Light Dragon

    Shadow of Light Dragon Avatar

    Messages:
    309
    Likes Received:
    768
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Weyrmount
    Please still name some.

    You specified games that have Offline experiences entirely separate from Online experiences in terms of purchasable content. I haven't seen any myself, but I would be interested to hear of some comparable examples to what you're suggesting for SotA.
     
    HoustonDragon, agra and Fister Magee like this.
  8. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    I agree with everything you just said.

    Where I think sometimes the single player feedback becomes wasteful is when people say things like "the towns don't have enough NPC's" for example. The devs reply, "It's a technical limitation" and then the same forum goer continues to lobby for more NPC's. Or when people say "this doesn't look like a single player game". Which is ironic because at the moment it's not. As you stated, "it's impossible to give feedback on the actual gameplay experience as the offline mode isn't out yet."

    If I were trying to give actionable feedback about the state of single player mechanics, I'd take the devs at their word that the narrative was yet to be layered over top of the existing systems. I would also take the devs at their word that the unique features they play to add to the single player version of the game are sincerely intended to go into the game before launch. So what's that leave us for feedback? Well you can play the game online right now and judge how the story is going now (keeping in mind that it's not complete). I'm sure Lum appreciates all the feedback he received on NPC dialogue and I'm sure the developers in general appreciate all the of the feedback they receive about quests that are currently in the game.

    But all too often I don't see that kind of feedback. I often see feedback that assumes the devs do not mean what they say, and have no intention of making a good single player game. Which is really where I get frustrated the most because 1. I think that's unfair. 2. I don't think it helps the situation. 3. I have my own list of features that I care very deeply about and instead of constantly attacking the developers about those issues and suggesting they have no intention of actually putting them into place, I'm trying very hard to be patient.
     
  9. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Here's what I actually said:

    All the games I have on Steam use this type of bundling system. I wasn't suggesting that other games specifically made "multiplayer" a DLC feature. I was suggesting that you can bundle anything on Steam as an expansion to the core game and that Shroud would not be the least bit inconsistent if they did that. My suggestion (above) was to offer the game as is, as single player offline, and with the additional ability to upgrade to multiplayer.

    Just looking at X-COM 2, they offered the single player game (which included multiplayer), a second option that included a future expansion and some other digital junk. In the case of XCOM-2's multiplayer, it's not something that I would personally pay extra money to have. But in the case of SOTA, we're supposed to have a single player experience that can stand by itself and offer 40 hours of playing time.
     
  10. agra

    agra Avatar

    Messages:
    1,501
    Likes Received:
    3,489
    Trophy Points:
    113
    In my opinion, the years are long past for significant changes to the game.
    At this point, all the feedback is collected from the Release Bug/Feedback forums. The rest is just noise to the devs who are down to 111 working days to create dozens of scenes from scratch, populate them, write dialogue, quests, story lines/plot, and other content.
    Then polish, balance, and optimize every scene, every skill, animation, particle effect, and sound effect, in that time frame?
    There is no time to gather feedback on new systems. There's no time to even finish the existing task list with the resources available!
    They'll be pulling off a miracle if they finish what they have on their plates now, never mind any new list of features.
     
    Ice Queen likes this.
  11. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    They don't have 111 days for anything but the final wipe and the land rush. That's not a launch and that's not supposed to include a finished single player game.

    Where I kind of agree with you is this. The methodology the developers are using is Fast, Stable, Fun. Darkstarr recently said that they were semi-fast enough, and fairly stable enough, that the next phases of "polish" where going to be about balancing and fun. I haven't made games before, so I don't know if that makes any sense or not. It's certainly not how I would've done it if I were in charge.

    But I have to think that the next 4.5 months will be very interesting if the developers are truly putting the bulk of their resources into "balancing and fun" for the first time. Remember, we've seen this game develop from the very beginning and watched the slow drip of change occur over Release 1 to Release 26. I must say that each release I personally feel that the developers make the game much better. But that doesn't mean we don't have a long way to go, we obviously do. However, unlike other games that just kind of "show up" in beta and we never see Release 1 to Release 32, following the game this closely seems to have warped our collective ability to understand the reality of where we are and where we are going.

    During Release 1 through at least release 10, I can remember Lum clearly stating "Please report any fun you experience as a bug". :)

    So let's hold judgement for a while, and that includes after the final wipe. Because this game's launch date has not yet been made public. I could understand if the actual launch of the game was sometime next year.
     
  12. Draconin

    Draconin Avatar

    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    224
    Trophy Points:
    8
    One thing I've learned the last few years with crowdfunding is that a lot of indie companies start out humble and appreciative of their backers only to turn greedy and arrogant once they accrue substantial funding. They try to see how far the rabid fans of their previous games will go in support. Anyone that openly questions the changes or direction of the game gets hammered by the white knights on the forums, and ofcourse, mods are lenient with regards to these indirect attacks because ultimately, it supports the game and devs. Very typical in many projects lately.

    Regarding SC, imho, after many awful marketing practices, I finally left that game when they labeled the hangar of low level pledges "Discount." I left a nice message on the forum directed to the "VP of Marketing" about how disrespectful that was to generous supporters of the game and their company. Sold all of my ships and left for good.

    I hope to god those marketing practices do NOT find their way here!

    So I prefer they stick to what they have been advertising.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2016
    Fister Magee and Dreamo84 like this.
  13. Ashlynn [Pax]

    Ashlynn [Pax] Avatar

    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    2,242
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Gender:
    Female
    If at this point they split single player from multiplayer, what they would have is a single player MMO with tick-based combat, scenes designed to be filled with mobs for large numbers of players to kill, economic and combat systems designed with multiple players in mind, generic quest NPCs, node based resource harvesting with timers/% based resource recovery, and... oh, so many other things. When they say "we're building the systems and foundations first" it has always seemed like they mean "we're building the MMO systems and foundations first".

    I am still extremely skeptical they can even pull off the single player offline part anyway. I've not been very vocal about it because I'm not really here for the offline side of things. This isn't because I think the Dev team is incompetent - they are obviously skilled - but because I don't think the two modes are reconcilable.

    So splitting the game in to a single player and a multiplayer stand-alone game would be a terrible idea because I believe one of them won't be able to stand on it's own two feet. And the game as-is is already receiving mixed reviews.
     
  14. Draconin

    Draconin Avatar

    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    224
    Trophy Points:
    8
    • Single Player – Offline or Online(Drop in / Drop out co-op play)
    • Persistent Universe (hosted by US)
    • Mod-able multiplayer (hosted by YOU)
    And when you didn't finish the game in its entirety .........

    Start selling it in pieces to continue funding.
     
  15. Lord_Darkmoon

    Lord_Darkmoon Avatar

    Messages:
    4,350
    Likes Received:
    14,680
    Trophy Points:
    153
    That is exactly what I fear.
    I am still not sure if a single Player RPG can be built on a MMO base - for me those two types of games are just too different.
     
  16. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    I often wonder, Lord Darkmoon if the continuous expression of your fear is served well in these forums?

    I too have concerns about combat, PVP, the ability of the developers to deliver what I purchased for my POT, the many pledge rewards that have yet to be fulfilled, the darkstarr moondial that does essentially "nothing" at the moment, the list goes on and on. But instead of spending my time constantly expressing that fear, I try instead to create bug reports, suggest changes and give actionable feedback that might push the ball further down the field.

    What good does it do to create multiple "I'm concerned" posts? Does it make the development go faster? Does it provide helpful guidance to the developers as they continue to layer the narrative into the core systems?

    Please understand that I'm not trying to single you out over others that are doing the same thing, but I know that you have a very strong passion for the single player features, and I know that because you write almost exclusively about how concerned you are about the single player features. To be fair you have also written some great feedback. But if I were to guess I would say that for every one feedback post you've written, you may write another five "I'm concerned" posts. So I'm curious if you have ever thought to ask yourself, does that help? Does that further your cause or does it make it worse?

    I personally believe it only makes it worse. The developers are aware of your concerns (and the others that share that concern). Unfortunately, they can't turn your concern into faster development or completed features more efficiently than if you were not voicing that concern on such a regular basis. From my point of view, this type of message has the potential to undermine the development schedule and makes it more difficult for the game to be recognized for it's accomplishments, which are many and may not always be what we care about most individually but are important just the same.

    Much like my concerns that I listed above, we're all in this together and we all have to wait. Wouldn't you agree?
     
  17. Lord_Darkmoon

    Lord_Darkmoon Avatar

    Messages:
    4,350
    Likes Received:
    14,680
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Sure I agree. Sometimes I can't help myself but express my concerns but I will try to focus on constructive feedback.
     
  18. HoustonDragon

    HoustonDragon Avatar

    Messages:
    1,526
    Likes Received:
    4,399
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    To be fair, it probably does help, since look at the recent feedback and updates that Richard, Lum, and the rest were giving us in the last Hangout towards allaying the Single Player concerns. It may get repetitive sometimes (don't we all :p ), but it also has a place when it remains constructive and respectful.

    Besides, we can all sing along while we wait :p
     
    UnseenDragon likes this.
  19. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Throughout the history of this development I've sometimes been as guilty as anyone else at giving feedback that is more emotional and anecdotal than it is constructive. But I'm glad you brought up the recent hang out that focused on single player features, at least for the majority of the time. I will be the first to agree that most of the hang outs did not focus on those things, but most of them did not focus on what I cared about either. (Even the ones where multiple questions that I asked were answered) I often ask questions that are simply "nice to know" instead of asking about the 100 or so unanswered PVP questions that I know will not be answered by the developers because those features are not going to be made any time soon.

    Because of the limited resources that this small development team has, they've chosen to wait to put some of the most basic features of pvp until post wipe. I'm not happy about that, but what features should they take off the table so that I can personally have what I want before the wipe? The answer is, none. They have all the development experience and they understand best how to use their own resources to get the most accomplished in the fastest amount of time. So me saying "where's all the pvp stuff?" isn't going to help, even if I cause such a commotion in the forums that they devote the next hangout to a "pvp focus". :)

    Also, the next time I'm ranting about something and not being constructive in the process, please feel free (anyone) to call me out on it.
     
  20. HoustonDragon

    HoustonDragon Avatar

    Messages:
    1,526
    Likes Received:
    4,399
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Again, to your point, if you're going to trust the Devs to answer the questions, you have to equally trust them to sift through the chaff from the grain to recognize and focus on what they also feel needs to be addressed. And I don't think I'm alone in saying (since I've been asking for the 2+ years about it since this has started myself) that the Single Player and story information has been very light on the ground up to this point, even to the point of being considered a dearth of the most basic background information that any RPG game is expected to have. That has caused some serious frustration (and will continue probably until we see the meat of the story in July) for folks who do just want to know about the world they're going to be in.

    I agree with you and I believe that there will be a home for both SP and MMO players, hopefully with a mutual benefit for the success of the game.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2016
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.