Crowd Control Spells

I liked how UO had minimal crowd control spells (mezmerise, root, stun, etc.) It seems like games are going overboard these days with spells of these types to where you can be out of commission long enough for another player to kill you before even do anything. There is nothing more annoying than a spell or ability that prevents you from being able to play the game.

Hopefully they take a mild approach on these spells. I much rather see spells like stone wall or force field to stop Mobs/players. What is your opinion?

 

I think every class should have a cc/interrupt skill with virtually no cooldown. (along with attack, dodge, block, etc.)

You shouldn't be able to chain cc someone forever, you should have to dance between various avoidance techniques to be effective.

 

I agree completely. The origin of CC spells being so desirable came from group PvE play, where a complicated pull might involve having X number of players from your group stop their normal jobs and spend time holding back a troublesome Mob. The problems came when those players were A) given the ability to "quickly" perform the CC and then get back to dealing damage, and B) when those CC's were applied to players.

The eventual evolution resulted in CC's with virtually no cooldown, low cost, high range, that were not dispelled by some (or all) damage, and did not in any way protect the target. I too, have been CC'd to death.

What I would want to see is NO "hard" CC, no spell or ability that lets you pick a target and switch them off. "Soft" CC, that limits or impairs the target, but still leaves them able to do SOME things, such as self targeted instant cast effects, is much harder to abuse, or be abused by. A slow effect, an interrupt, can limit you, but if a player has taken the time to equip and train themselves to deal with it, it should be possible to at least partially shrug all CC effects off. If this is a guiding principle of CC abilities, then victory will revert to a contest of skill and power, not a quickdraw fight to see who can lock the other player down first.

 

Give me REPOND for Orcs, Goblins, Troll etc... jk I was like a little slot machine junkie everytime I cast that spell in Ultima III!

 

It was easy in UO to chain someone to the ground especially in Renaissance. 2 players casted paralyze, one dropped it and the other waited for the player to use a para box and then the other casted para. Rinse and repeat til he is out of para boxes and then a combo kill. Some players had 15 para boxes in their backpack.

Another way was wrestle stun that worked even better.

I agree though that chain someone to the ground so he in no way can fight back before he dies is bad gameplay.

 

My opinion about CC in PvP is that:

1. Complete, preemptive CC should be fairly rare, short, and include diminishing returns. Perhaps a couple seconds for a single CC usage, up to a dozen seconds as the max length of a flawlessly executed CC chain, and the victim becomes immune to CC for a few seconds afterwards.
2. Most CC should be reactive and partial. A counterspell when the opponent is casting something, preventing him from using spells that share the same reagents for a few seconds; a disarming parry that leaves the opponent unable to attack with weapons for a few seconds; and so on. Diminishing returns should also apply here, but with larger limits and a smaller immune to controlled time ratio.
3. Ideally, players should still be able to still do something while subject to CC. For example, perhaps he can't attack, but can use active defenses. Few things are more irritating than completely losing control over one's character, but allowing players to still do something, even if at reduced efficiency, should help prevent this issue.

 

I would like to see only forms of soft CC, and I feel as if they should be severely limited in number. I also would, like some others here, like to see at least one method to break a CC that doesn't require a similar process to carrying 20 trapped pouches simply to be able to survive another player's CC.

I think SOTA should also invest in diminishing returns on these as well, especially if they create a form of full loot enviroment for those of us that would prefer that style of play.

 

It sounds like this may be a run for the border type game.
I'm more for walls and fields then paralyze but many would not like having walls around them while fighting a creature so that might only work in a pvp mode.

 

Limit CC. Just make sure you create PvE encounters that won't rely heavily on CC for success. Then it won't carry over to PvP and cause massive issues.

If you make some boss fight require 3 - 4 stuns and a mixture of slows, then you are forced to implement too much CC.

Like posted above, the greater emphasis placed on CC for PvE is what carried over into most games with PvP.

You could also turn off most CC for PvP. Just have some skill unuseable in PvP. Wish SWTOR did this, they already have some skills that you can't use in PvP, why not turn off a few more CC's to keep the PvP clean and play more smoothly.

 

CC is critical to PvP. PvE is about rotations and dps races, PvP should require skillful, well timed decisions. And cc is a huge part of this.

 

Yeah, as long as:

- CC has counters, so it doesn't become a race to stunlock first.

- Both CC and it's counters are limited, making the usage of a CC or a counter a strategic decision rather than a reflex test.

- Ideally, most CC limits the character's ability to act, rather than shut it down completely. Allowing players to still do something while subject to CC goes a long way towards making being CCed not so infuriating.

 

Crowd-control is something I feel very passionately about. I'm going to go the other route on this, and here is my thinking:

• Crowd control should be debilitating. As such, it should not be something that everyone has access to.
• Mitigation should be achievable by speccing your character in some kind of resistance calculated against the CC'er skill, which would affect
  • If it hits
  • Its total duration
• Breaking out of crowd control should not be something everyone has. It should also be something you spec for.
• There should be varying degrees of speccing CC break/purge, such that at higher tiers the cooldown is reduced.
  • (15 mins, 5 mins, 3 mins; for example)
• Being able remove crowd control from friendly players is something you shoud have to spec in. Have it be a spell a utility-style player could cast freely.
• Casting CC on a player multiple times has diminishing returns.
  • half duration, quarter duration, ineffective
  • CC immunity timer should be 60 seconds
  • Some CC shares immunity timers so they cannot be chained infintely (see below)

This creates a dynamic where adventurers are dependent on one another in a PvP environment. You can have one person who is well-versed in crowd control specifically. As a utility player, they are able to throw down CC or remove it from their friends.

Here is how I would like to see it implemented.

• Mez should be
  • Long duration
    • Max 60 seconds.
    • Duration affected by CC'er skill vs. target's resistance
  • Breaks if target receives damage
  • Can be purged with specced ability
  • Can be cured by an ally
  • Shares immunity timer with Stun
• Stun
  • Short duration
    • Max 10 seconds.
    • Duration affected by CC'er skill vs. target's resistance
  • Does not break if target is damaged
  • Can be purged with specced ability
  • Can be cured by an ally
  • Shares immunity timer with Mez
• Root
  • Long duration
    • Max 30 seconds.
    • Duration affected by CC'er skill vs. target's resistance
  • Breaks if target receives damage
  • Can be purged with specced ability
  • Can be cured by an ally
  • On its own immunity timer
• Snare
  • Short duration
    • Max 10 seconds.
    • Duration affected by CC'er skill vs. target's resistance
  • Does not break if target is damaged
  • Can be purged with specced ability
  • Can be cured by an ally
  • Shares immunity timer with Fear
• Fear
  • Short duration
    • Max 10 seconds.
    • Duration affected by CC'er skill vs. target's resistance
  • Does not break if target is damaged
  • Can be purged with specced ability
  • Can be cured by an ally
  • Shares immunity timer with Snare

I know a lot of people do not enjoy being CC'd. The amount of loathing you have for CC should be directly proportional to the amount of points you spend in your resistances and ability to purge it.

Now, I know that with an immunity timer of 60 seconds, and a maximum Mez on 60 seconds, you must be saying "But Kilhwch, someone could presumably chain cast Mez indefinitely!"

Yes, they could; theoretically.

If the target has ZERO resistances, and the attacker has MAX points in CC. But they also have to remember to re-target and re-apply the Mez, while (presumably) a big battle is going on all around them. Also, any other players casting CC could effectively nullify the original CC by overwriting with a shorter duration, or the target could be hit by area of effect spells, a passing mob could hit them... Lots of things can happen.

While that scenario is possible, I do not think it very probable.

Standing around being mezzed for 60 seconds while each of your friends is singled out, stunned, and slaughtered is a hard lesson, but one that everybody should have the opportunity to learn from. I don't mean to aliente anybody with this, or say "lrn 2 ply;" I'm just stating my opinion, and offering solutions.

You can fight other living players under these difficult circumstances and come out on top, as long as you plan ahead and run with friends. Trust me, a battle hard fought and won tastes ever so much sweeter.

 

Maybe it would work better as a class or tree then to include something like this then with something like mage spells..
If mages have these types of spells it will be common place for us to get stuck but if it is another skill set then we might see less of this.

 

Basically no. This is why CC gets a bad rap. Specing into CC and CC breaks is the cause of all CC hating problems. Everyone needs to have equal access or you have min/max problems, PvE vs PvP spec problems, unbeatable team problems, and all the rest.

 

Actually, I was asking myself why anyone would want to recreate WoW-style CC-centric combat in SotA... We have the chance to build a game that doesn't boil down to who gets off which CC first or in what perfect sequence or who stacked which resist. Lets dodge the bullet of naming a gazillion CC abilities for attacks that don't necessarily have anything to do with incapacitating someone just because every class has to have the same amount of CC or else.

 

Hey, it was just my opinion and like I said I feel very strongly. You may take it or leave it. I think that PvP is very milquetoast in modern games and a large part of that has to do with the way CC is handled. I think that WoW uses a weaker model than what I put forth and frankly I find their PvP to be very boring because of it. You can also cast spells while being hit with melee, which is another issue I have with that game.

SWTOR gave everyone a CC break ability and as a result there was no diversity in its use. If a player could cast it more often at the cost of other abilities, would they take that route? Or would they trust to luck and their companions and forgo it entirely in favor of being able to do more damge?

As I said above, everyone could spec in these abilities, but they should have to take points from somewhere else. It's a balance.

 

I hear you @Kilhwch, and I respect your opinion, and your right to it. That said, for any dev's perusing this, let me just add my voice the the chorus crying "Dear God in Heaven, NO!!"

That complex list of character disabling horror is exactly why I am so against hard CC. I don't have to specially spec my character to face any OTHER kind of character build, I just build what I want to play and then go look for trouble. When Kilhwch build his example it contained two characters, a damager and a CC'er. I present a different scenario. Four CC'ers. They have minimal damage capacity, but they don't need it. They can shut down up to four enemies indefinitely (because when CC'er 2 rotates to target 1, that frees up CC'er 1 to rotate...), They have near infinite time to coordinate attacks, and they can stack their damage abilities to take out one helpless foe at a time. Yes some CC might break on damage, but some won't.

The reason CC became necessary in WoW, and similar games, was healers. The raids and 5-man instances were set up with REDICULOUS ammounts of damage, and a properly built healer spent nearly the entire run filling dumb dps from 5% to 100%, frequently with one or two spells, and the tanks were gradually stripped of damage resistance so that the healer would be more and more needed for them. This produced healers who had greater numerical output than any three dps.

When those healers entered PvP, they could render anyone they wanted invincible just by focusing on them. This led to people going on skill-free murderous rampages, which left reasonably angry players in their wake. CC let people shut down the healer, and that allowed the healer's friends to be killed.

If SotA avoids having healers who can refill a player's life to full in two seconds, and instead makes us DEAL with our wounds, then that kind of CC won't be necessary.

 

This is tough to get any real headway , only because if SoTA was Like the old uo you could only have short duration CC if it was like Dark age of Camelot or Wow You could have much longer CC durations.

 

The example is much closer to Dark Age than WoW; and I wasn't implying 2 people fighting, more like 16. Like I said, you don't have to have max abilities in CC to be able to break out. You can invest points in a purge ability as a damage dealer. Heck, you could have everyone in your group grab purge.

 

Kilhwch, that style of CCing is very reminicent of Dark Age of Camelot which for the most part did a great job at it and I enjoyed that game quite a bit but if they are going to put CC in this game to that extent, then there needs to be a lot more ways to break free from it. I think in DAOC you had to have realm abilities only.

My whole beef with CCing is that it should never make you feel like you are no longer playing the game and are a spectator waiting for your turn to die. If anything they at least need to add a mini-game that allows you to break free. Breaking free of Mind controls could be easier if your intelligence is high and strength based for roots/snares.