Don't loot my armor and you might just stimulate the economy!

Discussion in 'PvP Gameplay' started by Gideon Thrax, Dec 23, 2016.

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  1. Stundorn

    Stundorn Avatar

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    The only thing that bring people to PvP who maybe want PvP but didn't until is no more harrassing and "balance"
    As long as spawncamping and ganking exists and PvP has no meaning and lore relation
    and it is just about for PvP itself, most people go play games what are made for PvP itself.
    Atlas Reactor, DotA, CS, Overwatch.... e.g.
    The harrassement even if it's just possible to be harrased by spawncamping, ganked again and again paired with the huge imbalance
    of Progression is what me totally let PvP aside.
    I have only a few hours a day to play, let's say 1-3 and I don't waste my time to something that gives me what?
    A 90% chance to loose against powergamers and gankers?
    No thank you!

    I haven't the time to grind, I haven't fun min/max grind, I haven't the money for the ransom and even waste reagencies with no reward.
    It's just about that and I guess a lot of people think so.

    If there were skillcaps and people get to and endgame where power is limited and everybody can become competetive, this would attract people to try PvP when ready.
    And before someone maybe stated that player x with level Y killed a lot of people who were far beyond to him an a lot of GM this is 1st an exception, 2nd let's compare the whole builds and 3rd it doesn't counter the argument that's actually just PvP for PvP itself.

    But I understand that grinding all day is boring and some want to compete with others just for the competition itself.
    But this is like RPG and FPS. RPG isn't just about pew pew competition.
    Therefore there are players who do not grind or go for sevenquadrillion XP per hour, but enjoy the games long term run with a very slight progress if you don't go for min max in a few weeks or months.
     
  2. Aimend

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    You're missing the point. This is supposed to help create an economy for lower level gear. No one purchases lower level gear. They wait for the super awesome maxxed out gear and troll around in it, are afraid to lose it, and fear armor decay like the plague...

    There should be a reason for someone to buy that +2 gear to help a starting masterworker afford the costs associated with leveling the skill.

    There is no reason anyone should be grinding mobs for 3 hours straight in top level gear. It's not necessary. Players need to change their mindset about gear and its utility in this game. This isn't WoW. This is why I wish stats were never added to gear...

    You want an economy for weapons and armor? You need to give people a reason to buy it. Gear needs to break. It needs to be stolen. It needs to be worth something.

    Removing gear from the loot table will hurt the economy more than help.

    And not everyone will have pledge gear to rely on. Think beyond testing. If the game does well there will be a whole bunch of people that will be relying on crafted gear to play.
     
  3. Gideon Thrax

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    I sometimes misrepresent my feelings toward PVP when I go off on tangents... truth be told I don't mind the spawn campers or the gankers... I wish there was more depth to their play styles and context for the game... but all in all, the gankers enrich the PVP experience - and the spawn campers... well, if you're the newb and you're mitigating your loadout, campers are mildly annoying at best. I'll go high and to the right if I get a whiff of someone tapping an exploit, but other than that - it's just bad form when rez kills happen repeatedly - everything else is fair game I suppose.

    Imagine being a new player and wanting to experience PVP... this is what you agree to when you download the game:

    You download the game and log in... play for a few days - flag for PVP and get rez killed until you're encumbered, broke, and naked... then you come to the forums, twitch, or youtube and read or watch the devs call you a newb sheep and not in a good way. You go to the marketplace and buy some gold to buy new armor and BAM - it's gone and you're paying ransoms to keep it... and BAM it's gone again.

    If full loot brought players to the field - I'd back full loot 100%... it's not working. With no in game consequences, no story context, no nothing nada for PVP except for eat or be eaten... I don't see the progression. If loot was limited to what was in a players inventory, leaving the equipped items off limits - that would be something. This loot mechanic as-is doesn't promote a healthy growth environment for PVP or testing of PVP mechanics or a way to stimulate the crafting economy. People don't have to buy starter gear from crafters - they find it in the wild or steal it and then the virtue mechanic slams them into a (still uncertain what this even means) anti-virtue faction.

    How skills are protected from decay until they hit level 40 - perhaps PVP participants could be protected as well in some way - having limited risk where PVP is concerned until they reach a higher level. All I know is the 25% bonus got people involved - but they were still uneasy about risking their equipped gear. Now the bonus has been nerfed and people are turning their flags off and just grinding it out in multiplayer - which is great for the MMO - not so much for PVP.
     
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  4. Aimend

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    Rez killing and its after effects will not be solved by taking armor off the loot tables. The devs need to find creative ways to make rez killing unappealing to those who find joy in it.

    Your question was about stimulating the economy. Taking armor off the loot tables won't stimulate the economy. It will have the opposite effect.

    If you want to have a conversation about pvp encouragement and failure to address unsportsmanlike pkers, that's a different thread.
     
  5. Gideon Thrax

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    Encouraging PVP >> should encourage combat progression >> should encourage equipables replacements and improvements >> should encourage combat progression >> should encourage masterwork >> should encourage use and decay and visits to master craftsmen >> should encourage combat progression >> and it just keeps getting better >>

    It's all relative; and the loot mechanic we have encourages the use of starter gear so you don't lose your good PVE armor.
     
  6. Aimend

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    All these shoulds are great, in theory. But the scenarios you currently have are:

    1. Use starter gear in PvP so you don't lose it. Don't buy low level gear.

    2. Gear is now unlootable. Don't buy low level gear.

    In both of these scenarios, people are still only buying higher level gear and rarely. At least with scenario #1 there is a chance that new players to the game will not use pledge etc gear and rely on some crafted gear.

    Removing gear from the loot table still will not stimulate the economy.

    I think the question you're really asking is:

    Will removing gear from the PvP loot table stimulate PvP?


    I'll say it a million times until I am blue in the face. Gear needs to break. Gear needs to be stolen. Gear needs to be lootable. That's how you stimulate an armor and weapons economy.

    Port broke this. Now they need to find a way to fix it. Maybe starter gear needs to be lootable, too. Then you're only contending with pledge and add-on armor. Even at that, add-on armor (and I know I'll get a lot of push back on this) should be lootable. Because it will force you not to wear it for PvP.

    You mentioned earlier that a common problem is that players tell you they have to go change before they flag. Reality is, it should be the other way around. People should have to change to dress up. To kill dragons...etc. Those are special events.

    You shouldn't worry about what you are wearing in daily gameplay.
     
  7. Adam Crow

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    I don't think your suggestion would really change anything to be honest. People are either just using that-("I'm wearing my good armor") as an excuse or they just don't realize how low the ransom prices actually are.

    It's become a misconception that when your good gear is chosen as a ransom item the ransom is a ton of gold. That simply isn't true.

    If your sole purpose is pvp and your using junk/pledge items your just screwing yourself over IMO. Your going to die more because you're weaker and end up losing more ransom gold.

    If you're really that worried about it, just wear the best stuff you have and carry around a bag of 100 lesser wands. Your good stuff will hardly ever drop, and even when it does the ransom is pretty reasonable. All the other amounts will be under 1k gold.

    Just don't carry stacks of anything valued at over 100 gold and your good to go. Just scroll down through your inventory and if you see any triple digit values, split them up into stacks or go stash them in the bank.
     
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  8. Stundorn

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    @Duke Avery I understand you well and your wanting to let PvP become more vital to the game and community is right.
    I support that, although I maybe sound sometimes counterwise.

    I played 2 evenings to buy a +7 Wand from a player /public vendor, then play 2 evenings more to get the second one.
    My enchanted Cloth Armor was a gift, but helps a lot while PvE.

    I really like to kill some Mobs to get Gold but I hardly can do it for more than 2hours.
    And sometimes i just want to decorate or RP.
    My colored cloth is important to me because of RP , I don't want to be in the same cloth and color.
    So i would need to have reserves and i also don't want to go in beggar cloth to PvP.
    Second point is that I always have to think over reagencies what cost and if you are not sitting on millions of gold and aren't willing
    to grind it very much I consume them only if it pays and not for fun.
    With time all this things will relatively easy better for me.
    Gold will stack up by time as gear will do and maybe reagancies will be more in my chest due to growing them and maybe doent sell them all or sell them and get gold instead to buy more etc...
    So time will tell...
    What I want to say is. PvP needs preparation and reserves , both is not easy to get if you let's say play 2 hours a day and like immersion and roleplay and idle arou d and decoration etc. the same as PvP .
    If you can afford that easy because of more available time or have minor restrictions to yourself like it need to be epic cloth in grey, because of RP for example than PvP in the actual state is fine.
    I guess we have a lot of "older" casual gamers and backers, who have responsible jobs, family, dogs whatever.
    Maybe I am wrong or this guess is german flavored :p or my limited personal perception, but if this is true
    Then it will just be time you need to get more people involved into PvP or the game need to be more easy or easier to make reserves and prepare for battle.

    Personally I take the time and I wait until the meaning comes to PvP , something lore and or virtue related thing or pvp sieges, guildwarss e.g.
    Until then I should be more skilled and prepared and I should have more reserves or can get them easier.

    The 25% was nothing really to PvP , but a bait for XP grinders who maybe 50% want to PvP unless fewer
    PvP folks need to address balance and meaning and not if it's full loot or random or pvp scene or flag everywhere etc...
    They need to communicate how a new player or maybe just no hardcore player can become competetive to people who play 10times more hours and 10 times more effective knowing every trick to get millions of XP.
    This is what PvPers who want to have more people in have to adress.
    Of course loot and PvP scenes and such need to discussed to, but this is more about fine tuning than basics that need to be done to PvP.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2016
  9. Gideon Thrax

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    You can talk to people until you're blue in the face - the reality of what's really happening is that you'll eventually pass out from lack of oxygen and then you'll just start breathing again anyway - maybe you became a cool internet meme along the way. The majority of everyone still won't risk their good armor to ransom - loot in PVP is a blocker.

    A scenario where PVP supports the economy is this:

    1. use starter gear in PVP so you don't have to spend unnecessary money on gear and repairs while you unlock glyphs and learn the deck system
    2. equipables are protected so long as they're worn - buy gear that enhances your preferred style of combat
    3. enjoy PVP, it's fun and adds depth to SotA the MMO
    4. gear decays and needs fixing/replacement
     
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  10. Ristra

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    Crafting can be done by anyone. Low level gear is not hard to craft. Most likely reason anyone would purchase low level gear from another player is abundance of gold.

    If the devs really wanted to make gear have to be replaced more often. Allow MOBs to loot players.

    Yeah this will land flat every time. People will not buy gear from the store if it can be looted.
     
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  11. Aimend

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    Not much need for this statement. But ok.



    Partially. If the gear decay/replacement rate increases dramatically.

    But in this you take away part of the Risk vs. Reward that encourages PvP. Getting random mystery stuff from PvP is fun and exciting. You are taking more fun and random stuff off the loot table in favor of what? Gold? Just consumables? Where does the line get drawn for what is lootable and what isn't? Should we just take everything off the loot table and award gold for killing?

    I still don't see how your suggestion of removing gear from the loot table, as the system stands today, simultaneously stimulates the economy and encourages PvP.

    And this is where I end. ;) Good luck! I just want an economy that works. I hope we get one.
     
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  12. Gideon Thrax

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    Did you watch the last livestream where Chris said they wanted to make the COTO a transaction currency on vendors in game? Now everything that can be made in game can cost real money without the hassle of gold farmers. I get where you're coming from - loot/steal armor to encourage PVP, and on paper it makes sense. It's how PVP actually exists in SotA that I'm talking about. Already people don't want to risk gear they had to "work" for... at some release in the not so far off future, people may be able to sell their crafted goods for COTO -- the loot blocker in PVP will only become worse. Unless something happens that causes a massive influx of PVP participants that are all willing to throw caution to the wind and just continue to pump the economy full of gold and COTO for crafted armor - the loot mechanic will remain a blocker for sheep, newbs, PKers, gankers, and PVE types just wanting to grind with a flag. That leaves an elite crowd of hardcore PVP types all standing around starring at each other wondering where everyone is.

    I'm not trying to change opinion, I'm taking a hard look at what's happening.
     
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  13. Adam Crow

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    It's seems like you are talking about the perception of how people think pvp works right now. Not the actual way it works. Have you done any tests with high end equipment dropping? Cause in all the ransoms I've seen so far (50-75 of them) only 1 has been over 3k. The rest were all like 200-900gp. What risk are you talking about? Cause I don't feel at risk at all right now and I always wear my best stuff.
     
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  14. Stundorn

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    Maybe true, cannot proof , but this shows perfectly what I said. To me sometimes 900 GP would be more than I have.
    Normally I have more, around 2-5k and because this is my standard I cannot spend let's say 2000 if I loose 3times.

    But what means this? It means if PvP actually is about gold, skills and reserves... than people who have enough of it and want PvP will participate in PvP.
    If they have not enough the rest should just wait until more people have enough and or it exists more meaning to it like lore relation, virtue relation, guildwars etc...
     
  15. Ristra

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    If the loot system is ransoming a piece of gear and never getting the gear because people always pay the low cost gold ransom. Then why bother with the ransom and make the looting system gold only?

    Add in the fact that people flood their inventory with gibberish to mitigate the losses and the system is borked.

    Only value this ransom system has is it appeases those that want a PvP loot system. And that doesn't work all that well either because it's not the system those people really want.

    1. Remove ransom. It's not a ransom if the looter has no choice. It's insurance.
    2. Remove the ability to use stack splitting against the system. Have the stacks counted as one stack.
    3. Give a real reason for someone to attack or not attack a player. Attack on sight for no other reason than the fact that someone is flagged for PvP only promotes looting someone dry. ~Purpose to PvP.
     
  16. Adam Crow

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    I couldn't agree with you more. To me right now, going to the price of the Oracle page is just as much as a nuisance as avoiding roving encounters on the overland map. Nothing ever fun comes from it, you just receive or pay gold and move on. I hardly even look at the items anymore.
     
  17. Timmy Vortex

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    Mostly for example people play pvp in gear they can afford to loose. So you get used to (also people tend to team up more) being a half god wearing +12 gear or something most people throw their keyboard out the window if they loose a fight. In most full loot games this is a rule. In Eve Online this happens alot. In other games people only brought their finest to tournaments.

    But the game was full loot from the very start. Ability to flag and unflag is a very strange thing which i think is weird from the very start plus divides a community. You don't want the word ******** to be used on a platform like Steam, but you do put a tag on people. I don't get it at all. Even in WoW which is as themepark as it gets you decide to play on a PVP server or PVE. I really don't think this current system will ever work.
     
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  18. Stundorn

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    I agree too but I like the encounters. I always farm the ressources if i get caught.
    And , but this must be a bug , in my region grows no maple wood, but roving encounters have it ;)
    Divides, but on one Server end enlarges the playerbase. I am forked about the whole thing g too, but until now I just see it's wider variance and options to attract more players with different playstyle, but to be honest , from both extremes the more modest ones.
    Hardcore PvE Raiders want more, hardcore PvPers want open full loot, hardcore explorers need no instances, hardcore story need things like!E SWTOR...
     
  19. Gideon Thrax

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    I think it's a mix of both. I haven't tested the mechanic lately since I've been running as close to a no-loot loadout as possible since R35. Prior to that if I wasn't blowing up gear on the crafting table I was losing it to players in the Shardfalls. There's definitely a perception driving negative feelings towards the loot/ransom mechanic right now. And it's not going to be an easy thing to fix either...
     
  20. Adam Crow

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    I think you've accidentally added to the misconception yourself. You've been pushing the whole no loot/pledge gear set up for pvp pretty hard the last couple months.

    You might want to try using high end equipment in some pvp battles or just some duels and see what you get for ransoms. If you unstack everything and keep a bunch of low value items (lesser wands for example) in your inventory, I honestly think you're selling yourself short using junk/pledge equipment.
     
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