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Devs: Please define the meaning of "macros" properly

Discussion in 'Release 37 Feedback Forum' started by helm, Jan 3, 2017.

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  1. Crumpets

    Crumpets Avatar

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    I doubt they find the creative or expected work on their end something that would cause a headache and feel pretty confident they know what kinds of things they are watching for as they go forward. This is an industry wide problem after all and although each company may be more or less forthcoming about the details and rules they pass on to players it is the same old problem - cheaters cheating ( very clever cheaters sometimes), how to monitor for it occurring and how to punish offenders.
    The headache part comes with trying to work through the needs, wants, demands, and yes, sometimes tantrums, of the community - and I do include myself. I'm sure it can also be a great joy and probably is, most of the time.
     
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  2. helm

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    There is no need for anything so complicated - just a basic clarification about what a "macro" is an what it isn't (as an example see the definition by SQUARE ENIX, posted above) would suffice.

    That said, I'm still waiting for any counterexamples demonstrating that my suggested exception would NOT work (by describing a macro, any kind of macro, satisfying all the conditions AND being able to cause "harm to the game")...anyone? ;)

    Assuming, for the sake of argument, that doctors (even neurologists) would actually understand squat about computer ergonomics (my own experience is that doctors and the so-called "ergonomists" are the last persons to turn to in this regard), it is not the gaming companies that are either responsible or even able to provide ergonomically friendly game mechanics. Ergonomics is typically the sole responsibility of the user. The gaming companies are, however, able to make ergonomic solutions difficult to use by overreaching rules. SotA certainly does have a couple of ergonomic nightmare design decisions included, but nothing that one hasn't been able to work around if necessary. Until now.

    Yes, indeed, sometimes the only solution is to reconsider the chosen non-work activities. Hopefully it does not come to that.

    Rather than calling that statement "simple", I would call it "sloppy", or "asking for trouble". :) I really don't think there's anything much to be learned from that experience..
     
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  3. Technowitch

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    Fascinating discussions here. I don't use any macros, but I surely would like to do so for some of the most boring, repetitive, and completly un-fun things such as smelting hundreds of ingots -- which is often necessary in order to craft successfully. Same with water gathering: Having wells and fountains provide water made agriculture itself economically viable in-game...but the process for obtaining the hundreds of buckets of water needed is beyond tedious. But buying water from a vendor -- something which is supposed to go away eventually anyway -- would make farming as a modest trade profession non-viable again, except for a few high-value-to-seed-cost items such as cotton.

    I understand eventually they'll also let us plant and water entire beds of plants, not just one plot at a time, a change which could not be more welcome. Still, there's been no talk from Portalarium of making SOTA significantly less anti-ergonomic. And the universal 20-make limit on crafting never made any sense to me. Sure, it's not a problem when I'm cooking foods or recall scrolls, because I don't need to make hundreds. It's irrelevant when I'm making armor or weapons because I'm crafting those one at a time in hopes of an 'extraordinary' result. But a limit of 20 is completely pointless when I'm processing bulk raw materials such as ore, wood, leather, cotton, or even turning pecans into cooking oil. My feeling is "refined items" and components such as ingots, thread, cloth, straps and cooking oil and so on ought to have a limit of no less than 100 makes. Keeping those at 20 makes me feel like a trained lab rat, pressing a sequence of buttons just to get the same bland food pellet every five minutes. Games are supposed to be fun, not tedious and boring to the point of making the idea of macro'ing ore processing or water gathering an actual temptation.

    I agree however with the OP that the vagueness of what constitutes a macro and what is a bannable offense is a huge problem. Mapping even a single key to my gaming mouse, such as "run forward" or "press Alt-0" (because that's always my self-heal button) is technically a macro. Sorry, it is. My mouse software says as much. It's even more explicit with my Logitech G13 gamepad, which I do use sometimes -- because I did suffer very serious RSIs a little over a decade ago, and my ergonomics consultant advised me to change-up my input devices from time to time to avoid re-injury. As many have come right out and asked, "If I bind 2 actions to one mouse button, will that bring on the ban-hammer?"

    How can we know when we've stepped over the line if we, the players, are kept in the dark as to where that line even is? It's also not a good idea to promote rules that in some cases would be unenforceable -- such as Port figuring out whether I did map two key presses with a brief delay between them to a single mouse button press. (For the record, I have not done this. But if I did, would that be breaking the rules? How would Portalarium even know I'd done this?)

    One particular angle I've wondered about though is whether Portalarium might be stepping into a quagmire by leaving their internal definition of what constitutes a bannable macro deliberately vague...which could be in violation of various countries' physical disability laws, including the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) which stipulates that any business must make "reasonable accommodations" for those with physical disabilities. If I was missing an arm or quadriplegic, there is no way I could play SOTA without custom gaming input devices. Devices which always make use of key-remapping and short macros to deal with repetitive, predictable tasks.
     
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  4. LoneStranger

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    It sounds like Portalarium wants leeway. They aren't going to bust us for using things like mouse macros tying some functions together. They just aren't. There's no point to it. However, keeping it vague allows them to drop the hammer when someone does something that clearly upsets the balance of the game, like running a bot, attended or not.

    On the other hand, they could declare detailed rules..... and still only follow them as strict or loose as they want to. No real change to them.
     
  5. Jezebel Caerndow

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    Just don't use any macros or bots and you are safe. I got to level 107 and producer level 85 without any macros or botting. Crafting is a time sink, but is it really so bad to click a few times every few minutes? Just turn on the tv, or read the forums or something while the 20 ingots get made or whatever.
     
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  6. Quenton

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    Anyone who's played tabletop gaming knows that the whole game is based on rules, on specific wording for those rules.

    There are two definitions - RAW (Rule as written) and RAI (Rule as interpreted). The latter is also referred to as "the spirit of the rule".

    The OP is not talking about clarifying the RAW, ie. exactly which macros are okay and which are not. This would lead to the macro A/B/C is okay but X/Y/Z is not, but oops we didn't consider new innovative D/E/F macros. @DarkStarr I think this is what your comment responded to.

    The OP is talking about clarifying the RAI, the spirit of the rule - what is considered a "macro" or an "unfair advantage" and what is not? What is an example of this that we can use to be able to judge ourselves to say "this is too similar to what they were talking about was a bannable offense". By giving a borderline example of what might be considered an unfair advantage but isn't, and another borderline example of what might be considered normal play but isn't - this almost completely answers the question, at least insofar as is the purpose of this post.
     
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  7. Jezebel Caerndow

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    There is a law, don't intentionally kill people. Do you ask for clarification on not killing people, or do you just understand it? What is so hard about not macroing at all? Do you need clarification, or can you just not do it? it is so simple not to macro, you simply don't. There is no need to macro. If you find the game to hard to no macro it, perhaps you should not be playing.
     
  8. mass

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    Just for reference, they can require medical documentation to have this allowed for people with specific disabilities. You can't just claim a medical necessity, it must have physician authorization.
     
  9. mass

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    Self defense, stand your ground, military action, afraid for you life, police protocol, insanity etc.

    Policy needs clarity.
     
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  10. Jezebel Caerndow

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    The people who want clarification obviously want to macro something, or it would not be an issue with them. If you want clarification, pm a dev with what you want to do and get an answer from them.
     
  11. Haz

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    Well, I wonder now, as I have in the past, "Am I breaking the rules?"

    Ah Mac2, that's not the case with alot of folks. Here's what I do, and if I get banned for it, well, I guess I get banned for it.

    I use a G13 game pad under my left hand. The little joystick is movement while in combat (mapped to w,a,s,d). I use the mouse to control direction and to click on action glyphs on my bar, but my right hand is screwed up due to an army accident in '74. Now for the part that, I guess, could cause trouble. The way I have my action bar set up is...aimed shot is on glyph number 1 and 2, disabled shot is under 2 and 3, and blinding shot is under 3 and 1. This way, I will have two of something show up regularly. Gamepad keys are setup as follows.....G15 key, presses R, then 1 then 2 then 2 again, G16 key presses R, then 2 then 3 then 3 again, G17 key presses R, then 3 then 1 then 1 again. So each of these keys starts a combo, combines the shots, and then fires it.

    There ya have it. At this point that is my most complicated "macro". Granted, if you look thru my posts from prior to persistance, you will find that I was trying all kinds of stuff, but that was during wipes and I presently have no real reason to do more than I am.

    So what do ya think, do I deserve a ban??

    Haz here, Xalo Mac in game.....
     
  12. Preachyr

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    Dont be willfully ignorant. There are plenty of people posting here and in the announcement thread giving examples of things that may or may not be considered macros.

    The big problem is that we just don't know what is considered a macro and what isn't, and there are all kinds of varying degrees of actions that could be considered macros or not. For example I have a Razer mouse with the associated software that allows the buttons to be mapped with all kinds of functions (Razer and Portalarium of course being very close and sending mixed signals now). If I use those functions and re-map skills to those mouse keys is that considered macroing?

    The bottom line is that no policy which involves banning and suspensions should be left intentionally vague so that the devs can implement it differently on a case by case basis. It is far too open to abuse and favoritism and opens up a can of worms for people to be punished for doing things that they have no idea are against the rules, since the devs refuse to actually clarify the rules.

    I don't macro and I am against this just on principle.
     
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  13. Jezebel Caerndow

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    For me personally, I consider getting multiple actions with one keystroke, or a repetitive loop, a macro, but as I stated above, just pm a dev and ask. The devs have answered all my questions I have asked, have you tried asking them in a pm?
    Definition of a macro - a single computer instruction that stands for a sequence of operations
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
  14. LiquidSky

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    I think you guys are getting a bit worked up over nothing.

    A lot of the examples of OMG I'm Macroing! I've seen fail to mention one very crucial point...

    They are not detectable.

    Now if you are stupid enough to AutoRepeat the 'e' key in front of a fountain for 10 hours while you are at work.....they will detect that. They will know you have 10,000 water and maybe even know you were standing in the same place doing it over that period of time. Same thing if you mine for 12 hours while you sleep.

    What they wont know is that you did it for 20 minutes while doing the dishes. Sure they know the 'e' key was pressed over that length of time...but it is impossible to know a macro did it.

    Before the conspiracy theorists pop in with their tinfoil hats....

    It is possible for them to put in a keylogger. One that records the duration and period of the key presses.....except that it would be unethical..if not illegal....classifying this SOTA as malware.

    They instead have to rely on what the operating system feeds their program. And they cant tell if those inputs came from what device.

    So for the people who make key sequences with their mouse/device/small child/pet.....to help with crafting, fighting, gathering resources.....don't worry. No matter how many people cry 'exploit'! nobody will be able to prove anything. Unless you do it for hours.
     
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  15. GrayFog

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    Ok, to both of you :D

    Ofc. such an policy like the 2 examples i posted look way better than just 1 short sentence.
     
  16. Scoffer

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    I can't believe this has spanned 2 different threads and multiple posts on both....

    Simplified Version
    Anything you try to set up that does multiple actions are not allowed. Having a program running in the background or a fancy mouse / keyboard to help you do multiple actions are not allowed. For those who said it can't be detected, use it at your own risk because if it does get detected and you get banned you have no one to blame but yourselves.

    Here are a few scenarios and the probable answers:
    Q. I have a mouse that I've set the side button to press X, is this allowed?
    A. This is a keybinding so yes its allowed

    Q. I have a mouse that I've set the side button to press X and then....
    A. No

    Q. But what if it make things easier and less strain on my poor hands?
    A. No.

    Q. My friend said I could....
    A. No.

    Q. I have a medical condition so..
    A. No.

    Q. I've been a gamer for 328 years and when I was playing XXXXXX this was allowed so...
    A. No, This is not XXXXXX

    Q. Last night my grandmother fell out of attic, bounced off a lader, rolled downstairs out of the front door and was then hit by a truck and is now on life support. The only way the doctors said she would make it would be if i had a macro that lets me do this!
    A. No, say goodbye to grandma.

    Q. I'm a roleplayer and I want to combine options so that i can tip my hat and do a backflip in one smooth action.
    A. No. Roleplaying should be dynamic and not automated in any way. You should be ashamed of yourselves for even trying to automate it.

    Seriously, If you have to ask "is XXXX allowed" then its going to be no.
     
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  17. TeddyMIT

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    我認同官方不需要去明確定義甚麼事"巨集(macros)"
    明確定義出來只是換個方式告訴會偷懶的玩家你該怎麼樣繼續偷懶
    更不用告訴玩家甚麼叫"不公平的遊戲方式"
    最廣義的解釋方式"只要不是官方認同的遊戲方式都是不公平的"
    如果連這點都無法理解
    那麼官方公告再多你都無法理解
    不需要浪費大家時間
    關掉你的電腦回到現實社會吧
     
  18. helm

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    @Quenton, thanks for the succinct clarification regarding the OP, I think you nailed it precisely.

    What I personally find even more interesting is how nobody has not been able to come up with a single example that would demonstrate the infeasibility of the exception I gave in a reply post (after it became clear that Port is not forthcoming in clarifying anything). One would have assumed, that presenting a single concrete example of a harmful macro satisfying the four conditions would have been easy to those in the "all 'macros' are bad" camp. Ha! Maybe I now need to add though, that anything following logic such as "all macros are harmful -> this is a macro -> therefore it is harmful -> QED" is not a valid counterexample, it is simply a false premise or circular logic. One would need to demonstrate how it potentially affects the game balance in some (significantly) harmful way.

    Even without the need to go into "clarifications" (which @mass already covered quite well), the basic issue here is that the definition of "killing" is quite clear, whereas the definition of "macro" is not clear at all. It's impossible to "just not do it" if one does not know what "it" means exactly. For example, if you want to rely on strict technical definitions, then even the simplest keybinding is a macro (a single action triggering three actions: a KeyDown event followed by a delay followed by a KeyUp event).
    When one signs up to the game, one also enters a contract. Sane folks generally want to know beforehand what the exact contractual obligations are that they are bound to. And because the contract is the same for everyone, the interpretation should also be the same. So this is also a matter of principle (of equal treatment).
    And as already discussed in here, there are ways to come up with sane definitions, also see my reply below to GrayFog and the related discussion about the SQUARE ENIX definition.

    @LiquidSky, I believe SotA already uses something resembling a keylogger (don't remember the exact title now, it's 3rd party software announced last year), even though it probably can(?) only record events sent to the SotA program. As you pointed out, those do present a security risk, I'd like to add that they're also largely useless: if one wanted to bypass the detection of such a keylogger, it would be relatively easy to do so - just record enough real life keyboard and mouse events from the actual game, analyze the variation and simulate the "real thing" - but who would actually bother to do so? The real bad guys of course, the gold farmers and bot makers. Be assured that they do. So yes, stuff can and will be detected. But only the "low end" stuff, that usually does not even attempt to hide its presence.

    @GrayFog, that "1 short sentence" makes all the difference, if it happens to be categorical prohibition of everything under the Novia sky associated with the term "macro". The SQUARE ENIX definition would also be totally spoiled if it included such a sentence as a fifth bullet point.

    Care to tell us why, and where exactly is the statement from Portalarium to that effect? Or was this perhaps your own invention?
     
  19. Nadomir

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    Has anyone simply tried to use some comon sense on this topic? I know it's a crazy idea, but just give it a try...

    It should be clear that mapping a single action to a mouse-button isn't the problem here. Once you perform any more complex thing (as in several actions) with a single keystroke, then you are most likely breaking the rule @DarkStarr and the devs have put up. What is so difficult to understand here?
     
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  20. Scoffer

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    macro
    ˈmakrəʊ/
    noun
    1. 1.
      COMPUTING
      a single instruction that expands automatically into a set of instructions to perform a particular task.
    Wasn't my invention, just an explanation of the actual definition of a macro
     
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