Final Feedback Compilation

I've been moderated for less though. I've never been a repeat poster and typically have given feedback no more then once per release, in addition to leaving my opinion on topics of interest. It's the inconsistency in application that makes it an issue.

@generalthread

I’m very grateful to see such a nuanced discussion spring up and have read every one of the posts. Somewhat ironically, this is exactly the type of discussion, and nuances both for and against, certain topics that I think would represent a healthy forum if one were to imagine this contention of ideas and experiences be seen across the forums as a whole.


I note that in many cases my concerns over being moderated spark some musing over whether I, or others like me, simply don’t understand why things are deleted, or if the deletion creates a better environment for Portalarium.


Unfortunately, short of being the type of person that saves every page view, I can’t really give evidence to the validity of my moderated posts, because they are simply gone.


What I can state however is since making the thread I’ve had several PMs from a specific forum member telling me they are laughing at me, I’m deluded, ‘I hope you don’t start crying over it’ and various other accusations that I am directly trying to sabotage the game.

I have also had private discussions with @Berek over moderation previously, and for whatever reason we can’t seem to understand each other. I did so when I had a post removed discussing the COTO repair changes, despite two other threads in general discussing them, with it cited as Dev+ only. I don’t have access to Dev+ and think there was some confusion because of info that made it into publically available interviews, but not ‘released’ patch notes. However, my citation of other allowed threads just received the same generic answers as to it being removed.


Again I have reached out privately about the harassing messages I have been sent, no reply. They are also reported, but still remain. There is a minority of posts in this thread that make wild claims about my intent and attempt to disenfranchise my message and me personally, yet they remain far longer than any of my comments which never made assumptions or claims about the person themselves.

This imbalance is what I can’t tolerate.


As far as the statements addressing whether or not I should be playing an Early Access game. I actually derive a lot of pleasure from playing Early Access titles. I was playing multiplayer Minecraft before Notch figured out how to sync health of the players with the server ticks so we were all immortal for a while in early alpha build. I enjoy watching the growth in Crowfall. I currently love playing Conan Exiles.

I get it. The games aren’t finished.


This is why my feedback is on the direction systems appear to be heading. Not assumptions of 'this us exactly what they want'. I’m not sure why being able to identify what parts of the game loop could be improved in terms of my personal experience, equates with evidence that I shouldn’t play Early Access games. To me, the point of playing Early Access is to be involved and active.

I guess my broadest point here is about driving the culture of the community to be more inclusive and accepting of differing opinions without resorting to people trying to dictate so harshly whether or not someone's experience on the game is worth sharing in the forum.

I used to jokingly consider a drinking game of having a drink everytime I saw a rezone along the lines of 'before this gets locked/deleted,,,' and other dismissive comments.

The community is small and I think the culture of it is still well within Portalarium's influence.

Even the subreddit can be made a place that is more balanced if it is approached right.

It's kind of self fufilling that everyone stays away because it's negative, but it's mostly negative because all the fans leave it to become one sided.

There's a lot of opportunity to make the community more broadly appealing and given the projected release schedualed, doing it soon would be a boon to the game if this was addressed before commercial release.

But that's just my opinion of course

 

From my perspective, I've been moderated for less too. It's situational.

That's your perspective. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just trying to point out that it's not enough to say "I've been moderated for less though."

If you go to reddit or Steam you'll find a number of people that will agree with you. (for example in the thread you appear to have posted in reddit with this same OP)

They'll tell you they were banned and moderated unfairly. That's certainly their perspective. So what's that mean exactly? Does it mean they're right and the moderation here is wrong? I don't think so, I think it means that some people can't really handle being moderated all that well. That the moderation rules are not something they really wish to follow on a consistent enough basis that they won't have something to complain about. But that's just my opinion.

 

In not looking for people to agree with me. In looking for people to discuss SOTA with me.

Do you not feel my current example of having a community member as I type still making personal attacks to me directly fair moderation?

You're responding to my post in generalities when I have two specific examples of moderation that was applied in an imbalanced way. One of then still happening as I speak.

Self admitted personal attacks sent to me directly and so far they have remained exponentially longer then a comment I made suggesting that using terms like 'sinister' to characterize a posters intentions was inappropriate.

I post this response to you, not criticizing your or your intentions, but still think this is enough to have the thread locked, moderated or deleted. But we are both being mature and respectful.

Is that good for Shroud?

Does that encourage a diverse community?

I mean in the only instance I was ever told why I was moderated it was because 'arguments' belong in PM.

Shouldn't we be able to disagree ideologically on the place of this system, or that decision on the forums, publically?

I know businesses routinely need to control the narrative around their products and services, but the best results are achieved when it's by equity, transparency and a 'soft touch'.

Supporting a wide community is challenging, but I want them to accept that challenge and meet their players head on.

Not create a community where exclusion are the tools used to control the content.

 

If you're having problems with someone sending you private messages with the intent of 'harassing' you, why not simply block them?

In the same sense that you've called out the moderation here, now you're asking them to go out of their way to assist you when you can easily solve the problem yourself?

Sorry that just doesn't make much sense.

 

I'll block someone for being generally annoying and silly. I haven't done so yet in these forums.

When someone explicitly breaks the community guidelines to intentionally belittle and attack someone for having a differing opinion on the game, I think that falls to more then just blocking the person.

Just because I block them, doesn't mean they don't continue the pattern with other posters they don't agree with.

Therefore I expect moderation. Particularly when that moderation is used to delete posts and topics that don't so clearly violate the rules.

It speaks to what culture portalarium desires in their community.

If the person isn't moderated, it's a very mixed message on what is acceptable.

 

I understand that. The quote you responded to was out of context, I wasn't trying to suggest motive on your part.

I believe that if someone is performing personal attacks against you that is against forum rules and my expectation is that they will be moderated.

If this is something happening in real time, I can tell you from experience that this may take longer to be addressed than you or I would like because Portalarium is a small team and they wear many hats. I don't always understand or feel satisfied with the speed at which moderation occurs, but I never doubt that they are trying to do the best job they can.

I'm not a moderator. So I have to either take you at your word or I have to talk in generalities.

If I told you that I was personally attacked by people on reddit, would you believe me or want to see proof? In the case of reddit I have very little that I could do about that because of the complete lack of moderation, which is why I never post there. But it would not take long to perform a Google search of my name and find some of the very people accusing our forums of bad behavior and unfair moderation are using my name in ways that do not seem quite right since 1. I'm not there to defend myself and 2. I'm just a person trying to play a game and have fun.

What seems very important to us as individuals can often be weighed by Portalarium moderation staff in terms of priority. I've personally waited over a week for somethings to be properly moderated. It's sometimes difficult to not feel like you're not being taken seriously and it's frustrating, I agree. But I can tell you based on my own experiences that I do not believe in any way that it's part of a larger problem. The moderation staff is just a few people that have other things they're responsible for.

This thread touches on a number of topics. There's some good feedback here, but it wasn't posted in the R39 feedback forum. So we have to ask ourselves how long does the OP shelf life last in the general forums? I personally don't know that it should last forever, do you? Is a few days too little or too much? At some point the developers will have certainly taken in YOUR feedback, and the rest of the thread will have devolved into people that think you're right and people that think you're wrong. Does that help the game indefinitely? I don't think it does.

I'm not saying to lock the thread today, I'm just pointing out that at some point in time this thread will no longer serve much of a purpose. We will have "gotten it" several times over.

It does actually. Because we've had many of these threads where people are unhappy and leaving. Should we make a special forum for them to last forever? I'm going to be silly about this for emphasis and to make my point. Should we go back and get all the threads like this from 3 years ago?

I don't see how that makes for a more diverse community.

I've been told that before too. I didn't like it either because I felt like the other people started it and wouldn't let it go - always needing to have the last word. But if I put myself in the shoes of the moderator, what's the point in letting a few people argue forever? There isn't one really. At some point the only people really reading the thread are just those few people.

We can.

But what we can't do is create drama because we're unhappy. There's no shortage of negative feedback on these forums, but the ones that are not moderated are "mostly" different than the ones that are.

I agree with you that when everyone is thinking the same, no one is really thinking. But that's not happening here. There's plenty of negative feedback. I posted at least three things over the weekend that were negative in the R39 feedback forums. One of my posts was called "Death Magic Sounds are Horrible!" and I meant it!

But the "soft touch" goes both ways. If you have people showing up on the forums that are breaking the rules, it's good that they get moderated. I can't speak to your situation, again I'm not a moderator. I can tell you that from my perspective they're trying to do the best they can and they're not perfect. I can't say that the majority of people being moderated are acting in the best interest of the game.

 

The kind of accumulated anger I see on Steam and Reddit is something that will have to be faced soon as we come nearer to launch. And I don't think the launch can be delayed any longer, this year is probably the best year to do it. Frankly, I think things will come to a head at nearly the same time, so whatever Port can do to build up goodwill is going to be critical in making this whole thing a success.

IMO this is , by far, one of better game communities that I've seen but by ourselves - we can only do so much.

 

You can expect to see more attacks on Shroud as they start to push out their best material closer to launch. It's already begun really. Does anything need to be done? I don't think so. I think the value of the game will speak for itself. Of course, time will tell.

 

Just as an example on how some vocal critics of the game are treated here:

I was banned on discord for a comment I just made on this topic. That the style of moderation does not really embrace all opinions and that the feeling of censorship etc. causes the game harm... 1984 etc.

I was banned for that temporary as it was told to me. This ban is now over a week ago, Berek hasn't responded to me via PM and I cannot contact anyone on discord anymore because I don't share their channel.

They just forgot me. Intentionally or not, that causes frustration.

1. Stating a temp ban without any time frame
2. Ill check the rules myself an find the longest ban to be a week
3. After a week no unbanning, and no reaction or reply for over 3 days.

This is just not acceptable. How is this supposed to work once the community should get bigger?
Well it WAS bigger.. guess what happened.

How do you generate people that will trash post your game where they can... I wonder how that happened

 

Lol vallo. Clearly your not posting in the best intrest of the game. (Sarcasm)

And i dunno. The thing is if you do the math.. and include their starting debt... they have ImO enough funding for at least another 2 years. If all funding stopped today..
(11 mil , team of 28 ( wasnt always that size) base salary x members = )
If they are hurting to keep lights on this year... then they need a new banker.

Guess wat im gettn at is, they dont have to release this year at all. The reviews they already shot themselvs in foot for. ( despite LB saying its cause of steam lol ) and thry already have angry backers watching and being loud. Honestly their best bet is to make sure they do it right, and the product delivers. Rely on player reccomendation and get past the people let down today, by meeting expectations in the future.
Lets be honest, there making some major steps lately. If the product is solid 6 months from now? They r perfectly capable or delaying even more to get it even better. The fundings there.
Releasing early with any disappointment to the masses, on top of trying to overstep early blunders would end the project imo.

 

Just because they have raised $11 million dollars doesn't mean they currently have $11 million dollars. Where do you suppose the money has come from to pay for rent, electricity, insurance, furniture, hosting, software, wages and salaries, etc. since the end of Kickstarter? Unless they have some other source of funds, they must have been drawing on that amount.

 

Just read the reddit version of his "point". It's not written the same way :

Quitting the Official Community and maybe not playing so much anymore

https://www.reddit.com/r/shroudofth...uitting_the_official_community_and_maybe_not/

Let's be clear, I do not disagree with everything he says HERE, in official forum, but those words on reddit show that this guy is handling hypocrisy with ease when he proclaims to be above all suspicion.

You can criticize moderation. Personally, I know nothing about this. I never got moderated neither here nor elsewhere so I'm not personaly involved. There are probably valid concerns (especialy "silent moderation"), but, in the mean time, I know in which camp hate can be found.

 

My $0.02...

I think it's a really great thing that Portalarium doesn't need to answer to a "corporate overlord" when it comes to many things: creativity, monetization, etc. I think however, when it comes to the moderation of the boards and chat, that they are in over their heads. Larger companies with dedicated support/moderation staff (Berek is only one guy, afterall) know how to draw the lines in a community without being heavy-handed or unfair. I think Portalarium could use more professional help in this area. It's obvious that the "rules" (guidelines, etc) are way too loosey-goosey. I know for a fact that moderation is often handled the wrong way on these boards and on the Discord chat.

I am not blaming @Berek here, at least not completely. He's only one guy and I don't think he has the sort of support and direction he needs to make open and fair decisions regarding moderation. I guess I could be in trouble for this post, but I hope not. I hope it is seen in a paradigm of truly wanting the best for this game. It's not just "I was unfairly moderated!"...it's the fact that it's been done several times, and if I didn't love this game and community so much, I would have left long ago. I am sure other people are in the same boat. Sometimes I feel as though I have not been true to my own dignity as a man, because I'm "afraid" of heavy-handed, arbitrary punishment. People can't follow rules and community guidelines rationally if there aren't any.

There need to be clear cut rules and consistent policies. @Berek needs help, and I hope he gets it from Port.

Please don't kick me out of the game, I love it.

 

I certainly hope we don't lose more people, we're few enough as it is. Here's a tip, don't get riled up when you see a post that's out to get your goat. It's hard I know, it took me decades to master my flash temper. And you're not alone with your concerns, many backers share them which is why it's important that we see this through - with our dignity intact.

 

If you want I can also give you a transcript of how I discussed it over drinks with my best friend. It'll be different again in it's tone and candor.

Does that mean when I formally provide the feedback in a professional space it's any less honest?

I used cursing and less polite criticism on Reddit because that is within the rules. However I'd like to point out that even in what you have quoted here I do not address the 'moderators' but the 'moderation' and cursing is a shortcut to emphasis that I cannot employ here and instead use more specific language to avoid misunderstanding as much as possible. In this forum there is far more arguments that focus on semantics, rather then intent. Usually to no benefit.

So, is it your honestly held belief that communication occurs identically between all contexts and all audiences? Or do you accept the same message can be delivered in a tailored manner at different spaces.

This seems like a pretty neat restatement of what I am critiquing, yet in the same post you denounce me for coming to the same conclusion on being concerned with silent moderation.

Is it that I have a valid concern, but because you judge me actions on the forum and reddit to be motivated by hate, I'm irrelevant and hypocritical?

You're not the only one to have judged me to be coming from a place of hate, but I I can only state that your conclusion is wrong on my motivations. If you haven't read my response to Marjoria early in the thread which goes into depth my motivations I'd suggest you start there. If you have read that and think it's just a lie, and I don't care deeply about the game, it leaves me with little I can do about that.

One last question. Does this response here, break the rules established for argueing with another user? Or is it your post that makes negative personal assumptions about my character break those rules? I'm happy to have the discussion here. I mean, let's not get caught up and beat a dead horse going back and forth, but in 99% of cases these disagreements look after themselves. I think most of us would have the maturity to take an attack or two and still roll on.

Unless a claim is tends to far in the fantastic, I tend to believe what people post here. Sounds naive, but most people do tend to overestimate their own skill at spotting lies. More to the point though, the evidence in just this thread suggests that my posted experiences and feelings when interacting on the forum are shared by several others. That should add voracity to how directly my claims are addressed, versus speaking generally about moderation and good quality forums. At the end of the day, if you don't accept the premise of my grievance, then the discussion between us can't progress as we won;t be talking within the same paradigm and instead will argue semantics.

SOTA is peculiar in how much passion it attracted from a wide range of people. I say that as a preface because initially my thoughts on your concern here were perhaps a little dismissive. But, the way you feel about the people on Reddit talking poorly about your intentions and your behavior, is a mirror to how I feel on these forums. In the last 48 hours I have been asked if I am crying, called a hypocrite multiple times, been accused of attacking the game in an effort to see it fail, accused of shilling for FFXIV and ESO based on a few words and dealing with the general assumption that I am a toxic, or sad little person.

The drama is stupid. Unfortunately, reddit will not ever change. Even on large healthy subs there is toxicity and drama, although on bigger subs because of the 'faceless mob' it doesn;t posses the same specificity of character that SOTA has.

Having said that, how much of what other reddit users do means that in turn I can;t be critically constructive on the main forums. Because some of the most vocal reddit members agree with me on several of my issues, and then often let their temper or bias get far ahead of them, do I then become 'one of them'.

It really takes two people to keep fighting, and I always see, as the reddit goes quiet, someone comes in and baits them and gets the whole cycle moving again. I prefer to think of that person not as pro SOTA or against SOTA, but just a common garden variety internet troll who has found an easily exploitable passion to exploit.

And both sides fall for it everytime instead fo seeing it for what it is and ignoring it, or calling it what it is, coolly and rationally.

You're right. But, the moderation I experience isn't about arguments living past their usefulness. It's disagreement of ideas being cut at the source, not when they are exhausted arguments. I also get this is one of those cyclical points where there are instances, we have all seen them, when people do start to make the same arguments all the time, but I think fear of that causes over moderation. The other divergence is whether youy believe over moderation is better, or under moderation (Certianly not no moderation). Persoanlly I'd rather err on the side of letting something go unmoderated rather then delete it just to be 'safe'.

That's the disconnect. You and I vary wildly on what we think is in the best interests of the game. So using that measure, we could both justify to ourselves why we might delete differing posts, should we have been in a position to do so.

it's great you give balanced feedback. I'm sure everyone gives both good and bad (Some of the reddit people are actually praising the combat updates and intorduction on patterns, although still lamenting other factors).

Based on that my summary is I think the definition of what is defined as helpful on the forums is too narrow and will remove useful discussion that people submit, and discourage greater deviation from the community consensus.

Without accepting my reported experience specifically, which as you say you cannot do without seeing it firsthand as one of the moderators, that's likely about the limit of what we can discuss based on each others different perception of the current forum activity.

 

Yes, in my opinion. Althrough I have to admit what you say reflects the behavior of many people, I think it's some sort of hypocrisy. Even if you speak to different people, your opinion is unique and tied to precise emotions. It can, of course, evolve but not express itself differently to accommodate the interlocutor, or there is some sort of duplicity.

But we are talking about intent : So you are disrespectful to avoid musunderstanding as much as possible and follow reddit rules ? I see where you are going here and I feel sorry for you.

You are right. I edited my post. I care about this because I care about SOTA. I see many people complaining, and some concerns appear to be justified. What I meant is : I can't be personaly involved in this because I never suffered from this. In my mind, all of this is only theorical.

I didn't said you were hypocritical. I don't know you. I said your post was hypocritical. Behind a message dressed in constructive criticism is someone who obviously thinks otherwise, I think.

I won't judge you. I judge your statements and intentions about the game. I disagree with some of your views on gameplay. The difference is subtle but essential

This is up to @Berek to answer this. Personally, I think personal attacks here are prelude to war. They have not any place on this forum. If anyone has a personal issue with anyone else, public trials are obviously NOT a solution. Then, personal concerns (for exemple, accusing someone of exploit) have to be discussed elsewhere (with Portalarium and the player, directly).

I don't support any personal attack in one direction or another. What I can say is, unlike here, no constructive duscussion seems to be possible on reddit. There are people out there who devote their whole time to defame about broken promises, players being favored by Portalarium or cash wasting without any real proof nor any form of understanding.

They use any piece of quote and screenshot to build assumptions about a big moderation complot and harass every person who disagree. It certainly does not excuse those who defend Portalarium by the harassment but there is something unhealthy with this.

 

The inverse. I respect the forums are property of Portalaruim have rules and guidelines on community participation. Reddit is actually closer to my natural speech patterns because, unlike official forums, it is a casual area for people to share ideas and content.

Portalarium don't automatically get my respect wherever I choose to express myself. After all, my point is I don't respect the way they handle the part of the community that I find myself being aligned with, nor do I respect the answers I receive that tend to not directly deal with my concerns. When I express that here I do it with the respect that is demanded when doing so on their servers, in their space.

If you characterize it as hypocritical to show respect in spaces where it is socially expected, but feel free to switch to more informal expressions outside of their private space, then what you think of as hypocrisy, I consider being human. I don;t think the message I post either here, or on reddit is any different in terms of content or specifics.

Correct me if I am wrong.

I know you didn't judge me, but judged my actions.

Maybe I misinterpreted your first reply to me because I got the impression that your current assumption is any moderation I was subjected to was fair and warranted.

So, how do you tell when a disagreement between different game based experiences, becomes a personal attack? Where is the line drawn in a community that is free to discussion and debate?

1. Someone tells me I'm wrong to think taxes on housing are too high and for me to respond to that with further discussion on why I think I am right.
2. Then they me lazy for not wanting to earn the gold in game and that I am just a ******** not used to games that don't give you everything for free.
3. Then you have further arguments back and forth if the people clash and it degenerates

Personally I feel I am being moderated at (1). I post something, someone disagrees emphatically, or I disagree with someone's post or idea and that interaction is seen as a predictor of 'toxic behavior'.

My perception is that if you post positively about the game then you can go as far as (2) in relative safety. Threads where I am moderated at (1) yet comments that are (2) remain.

I think all the references to reddit are muddying the main thrust of my point because objections keep being put forward based on activity that other members are responsible for that means it's somehow relevant on my feedback here because I am active on the reddit forum.
They often go to far and sabotage their own points by getting angry, but they are just people. they don;t have the same interests in improving their customer service because none of us are their customers.

It might seem unfair, but businesses don't have the same luxury as individuals and really should do everything they can to avoid the appearance of removing critical posts/players even if they believe in their hearts they aren't doing that.

I recognize that a private company has every right to refuse service and participation on it's servers/property or wherever.

As a customer service based industry though I just wanted to give feedback on how they could improve their customer facing interaction based on my experience as a customer because I think they can do better and generating the highest revenue streams rely on it.

If I am wrong and can;t recognise my own shortcomings and toxicity, then the topic will more or less be moot once it's run it's course as that will be it.

 

I shouldn't have said "disrespect". Indeed, respect has to be earned. But for all that, the lack of respect does not justify offensive remarks. There may be disagreements, disputes, for sure. Using insults has never helped to move the discussion forward (especialy when you are not in a face to face relationship). It's just discharge of hate. It's not being human, It being a beast, and a pretty bad one. But that is only my opinion.

I could not say that. I don't know how you have been moderated and it's not my duty to be a "Court of appeal". That said, english is not my native language so I may have expressed myself badly.

As I said earlier, it is not up to me to judge of that. Moreover, I do not have the details of these messages. What must be understood is that, as everywhere, there are written rules and there is their interpretation. It is up to the judge to make this interpretation in a court and it is up to the moderator to make this interpretation on the forum. I agree : the judge and the moderator have to account for their decision but you have to rely on them too.

 

@mercster It's not all on Berek's head, moderator competence was worse before he joined the team.

All I see is someone who doesn't feel like he/she can accurately express him/herself in official channels and felt that he/she had to reword his/her thoughts in order to have some hope that the devs might read his feedback.

From personal experience, I was moderated because on called out on people who insulted other communities... you know, people who can't argue back. People who were saying things like: "We're so much more sophisticated than the stupid Call of Duty and World of Warcraft morons! Am I right, guys?"

What I learned:

• It's okay to be a prick and perpetuate hate so long as you're not directing it to THIS "community".
• It's okay to use profanity (even though it's against the forum rules) so long as you're not using these words to describe an aspect of the game or someone else in the forums.
• It's okay to be snide and derogatory towards someone so long as you're defending an aspect of the game. If you're a target of these comments, replying in kind will get your moderated.
• There's hardly anything you can do if the moderators are having a bad day; anything may set them off.
• You can't defend your case if your post got reported by someone else.
• If you contact support/customer service about the issue, they'll ask for specific examples/thread/post even though you're contacting them about a DELETED post.
• The moderators have every right to delete these threads because it's against forum rules to talk about moderation.

 

It's possible. You are free to believe that and you may be right. But allow me to have my doubts about the word "accurately". To me, it seems he doesn't feel like he/she can "offensively" express him/herself here, just like he did on reddit. You can perfectly not being "a prick" at all, not using "profanity" or "derogations" on any circunstances. I don't support any form of agression. If moderation use variable geometry, I deplore it. That's my point. Nothing more.