Make shield users generate more aggro

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by Spungwa, Feb 26, 2018.

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  1. Spungwa

    Spungwa Avatar

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    So i was thinking, in this game it is very hard for a dedicated tank to keep aggro. There is taunt in the heavy armour tree. But just because you wear heavy armour does make you a tank.

    Choosing to forego the additional damage of a second weapon or 2H weapon in preference for a shield, really does mean you are prioritising defence over damage.
    Because of this i think the shield tree should be tree that allows you to attract more aggro for lesser damage.

    I would like to see something like shield bash become an AOE like whirling blades but that does a very small DPS DOT, but that aggro gained from those DOTs should be equivalent to a multiple of the actual damage it does. This way shield users can try to take and hold aggro as a dedicated tank build.

    The exact number for that multiple, i don't know what it should be but perhaps as skill increases should increase the aggro multiplier of skill rather than the damage.


    Regards
    Spung
     
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  2. Diab Blackbow

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    I was thinking about Defensive Stance as the aggro generator. Also make stances toggle.
     
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  3. redfish

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    Not all shield users are tanks. I play light armor + shield together, solo. Because I'm light armor I rely on dex skills and movement, a shield is just a utility. Plus what if shield users just have a buckler... and why is shield block different than offhand parry?

    Generally I don't believe aggro should be forced on players just because they're holding a shield in offhand.
     
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  4. redfish

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    Also, I use Def. Stance. ;)
     
  5. redfish

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    I'd just add that tanking in combat imo is a kind of meta-role, not really traditional role playing.

    I feel its okay imo for devs to support it with skills like Taunt, but I don't feel it should be forced in a way that makes shield users = tanks and goes against the class flexibility of RP.
     
  6. Spungwa

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    Nor do I, that why i was suggesting a skill that did a small DOT that generated the aggro, if you don't want the aggro you don't use that skill.


    For the buckler point, I don't think i have actually seen bucklers in the game, debatable whether bucklers are actually shields. I would have bucklers as offhand only weapons that give a bonus to the tactics offhand defence innate skill.
     
  7. redfish

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    Yea okay if its something skill related, then I'm less against it.

    I think the devs need to do more to differentiate small shields vs large shields personally...

    Bucklers are currently in the game, though nobody uses them; but yea it seems to me they can have dual use, so be a Pugilism weapon, for instance. Although, I've suggested skills for shields before like punching and binding that would be realistic to actual shield combat and include bucklers.
     
  8. redfish

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    I'd not want to see aggro it tied to stuff like shield bash though... Thats useful just for stuns and combos and good for non-tanks. I think there needs to be something new.
     
  9. Oxblood

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    Taunt aggro generation imo is not as high as it should be, I also believe shield bash, body slam, and charge should generate large aggro spikes. I know this doesn't sound like a good idea to some players, but I doubt those players are using the skills as much as a dedicated tank. As a tank I'm hitting shield bash, taunt, and body slam on a regular basis. I'm all for smaller shields causing less damage, aggro, and lower stun chance though.

    Taunt should be Large spike in aggro that slowly fades as other players generate more damage, the tank should still be getting aggro built up just not as fast because of lower damage output. But if 100 damage = 100 aggro then taunt should generate more than 100 aggro.

    Shield bash should also cause a spike in aggro dependent on shield size. i.e. Large shields generate more than a buckler.

    Body Slam should generate a huge spike when used from behind a target, and lower aggro for the person directly in front of the mob.

    Multi-Shot needs to have its aggro generation lowered, I get that getting hit from behind with 5-8 critical hits is a lot of damage, but after one use it should not pull aggro off of a tank using taunt over and over.

    Give archers/polearms the ability to shunt aggro, back on the tank. Something like a trick shot that when done from directly behind a party member between 25-50% of accumulated aggro is shunted/directed to the person the mob is facing.

    Give Healers/Magic users a skill that allows them to reduce the amount of aggro generated while casting.
     
  10. Weins201

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    So you want to add some agro boost to the shield spells, possibly.

    But look at this any intelligent person in a battle will attack a non shield guy first since they will technically do less damage since part of their skill is to defend NOT attack. So once you have bypassed the shield you go after a damage dealer.

    They have actually done pretty well at aligning this to real world.

    There are skills in the tree, train them up so they do more damage, go out in a group that lets you do the damage.

    There are other ways to focus the agro on you, and use the skills in the tree like they are supposed to Support defense, NOT become the aggressor.

    Sorry to point out the negative to your mindset.
     
  11. Lazlo

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    I like the idea of having some kind of agro skill for shields. All of the stun skills are ineffective vs. bosses, which is (in some cases) when a shield is most viable for a tank type in PvE.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
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  12. Cinder Sear

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    Why not add aggro to the Charge ability in the tree?
     
  13. Oxblood

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    While I see your point about real life situations this is a video game based in a fantasy world. They're dragons, and magic, and undead. So having a few things not align with the real world should be okay.

    What skills specifically are you talking about, as a sword and shield user I'm not going to get huge damage but I should be able to protect my DPS and healers. I mean there has to be some sort of trade off.

    My guild and I hunt together quite often, which is how I know an archer using gm multi-shot can pull a mob off me even after dropping stacked taunts, shield bash, and body slam on it.

    It has nothing to do with being the aggressor. There has to be a trade off for me working the defensive/shield skills though. For example, I'm wearing heavy armor to reduce damage because I expect to be the one getting hit and controlling the fight. I need abilities that are going to make the target want to hit me instead of my mages/healer/dps that are wearing cloth or leather. I'm okay with doing less damage to be able to do this, that's why I chose a one handed weapon and a shield. If I wanted to be a melee DPS I would choose a two handed weapon, or polearm.

    I have the mindset of a tank, I've tanked in every other MMO I've played, and I'm good at it. As of right now though this game does not support traditional group game play very well.

    I really like this game, and want it to succeed. I just think aggro control needs to be adjusted.
     
  14. Weins201

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    You can there are is a skill there that give a defensive bonus to players around you while you carry a shield, that is the trade off.
    And this is where a GM archer should know NOT to use Multi Shot because it diverts Agro, I specifically take it out of decks because of this.
    If that is what you expect drop the Shield and grab a two hander and pull agro with more damage.
    actually you are not, because pulling agro is linked to DPS and is controllable as to who does more. What you are saying is you want the bonus from the shield AND want to do more DPS which is what pulls agro?

    Sorry, instead of you and players around you adapting to the game, you want the game to adapt to you.

    So keep your shields use them when you want to and work on other skills to make you more of a "Tanky "Target, when you want to.

    I understand you wishes but, do you see what I am saying? It is totally possible to use exactly what you have already setup in different situations.

    Final thought on this - I have given clear reasons as to why your idea conflicts with system, if you cannot accept it, so be it. But just restating your wishes over and over will create an endless loop, so I am prob done replying here.
     
  15. redfish

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    Yea, you're still talking about making those attack skills less useful to a non-tank that doesn't want the aggro. A light armor user that's stealthy can use the stuns to his advantage, could be harmed if he aggro'd in non-targets, and this would make the skills more dangerous for him.

    Which I suppose is fair enough to some degree, to the degree it makes sense. Though I think we want enemies to be smart, instead of easily manipulable.

    But thinking about it, it does make some sense for all the shield attacks to draw aggro from a target you're directly affecting, at least. With Shield Bash, you're obstructing the target through knockdowns. With Shield Charge, you're engaging and threatening the target.

    My only issue would the extent that we're talking about attracting aggro from non-targets.

    But if shield attacks aggro'd affected targets, I'd see no issue with that.

    There should also be some natural aggro in the sense your shield attacks draw attention, in the same way that other attacks might draw aggro, but not necessarily more. And if you're obstructing the path to other players, you should also be a natural aggro target.

    And as long as we're going down this route, there might even be a shield innate called something like Shield Control, which increases the amount of affected target aggro you have on your shield attacks.

    Or, it could also be superadded with Shield Specialization.
     
  16. redfish

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    Or it could be a short range, short duration aggro too, I guess.
     
  17. Oxblood

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    By DPS I meant players that are damage dealers like Archers/Two handed Sword and Mace users/Polearms. I apologize if there was some confusion. I did not mean that the tank needed to generate more damage per second, if anything the tank should be able to trade damage for defense and aggro generation. The tank should have higher defensive abilities and can generate more aggro/threat/hate whatever you want to call it, and since they have a skill that is solely an aggro spike skill, TAUNT, that maybe it needed to be adjusted to allow you to hold/or pull the attention of the mob to them, and have that skill somehow be added to shield bash/body slam/charge, damage from those skills should stay the same as it already is.

    I also like the suggestion above that defensive stance could generate more aggro with skill use and have the ability to be toggled on or off. Tank generates less damage but defense is boosted as well as aggro generation while toggled on, or maybe have a shield stance ability and a sword stance ability. Sword stance could decrease aggro generation and ....something.

    I still believe that if a Damage Dealing player goes nuts and dumps their focus by spamming high damage skills or spells they should be able to pull the mob off of the tank.

    I totally agree with you @redfish, shield bash should be a direct attack, or at most a short ranged cone, with maybe a higher chance to stun if used from behind or stealthed. So when it is used you don't pull something from across the room as well.
     
  18. redfish

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    @Oxblood

    And if they make it so aggro is based on stun chance, and make stun chance vary based on the size and type of shield, I think that could work out well, too. So buckler sized shields have smaller aggro due to smaller stun chance.

    What do you think about the idea of a passive skill that multiplies your aggro from attacks?

    EDIT:
    Or rather, a passive skill that multiplied stun chance, increasing aggro indirectly... That would be better IMO !
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
  19. Armitage_

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    I also think there needs to be a stance that generates additional aggro. It would make sense if this was Defensive Stance, however, I don't think it needs a toggle. If you are using defensive stance you are expecting to be hit, why not make it generate more aggro? I know many solo players use defensive stance, but if you are solo aggro doesn't matter.
     
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  20. marthos

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    Yes to the ideas above! Taunt only adding 100 threat doesn't scale very well, as DPS can do more than 100 damage with a skill use. The taunt skill is giving up damage in exchange for threat, so it should do a lot more than what I can achieve with a solid hit from a two-handed weapon.

    Shield skill tree makes the most sense for additional threat generating skills. We need a force-taunt that forces an enemy to attack for a few seconds, and some big time threat generators in addition to taunt. A tanking stance could also be added into the mix
     
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