A Crafter knows Combat

In listening to the Dev Hangout 4.2.13, I wanted to post my feedback about the crafters having specific combat skills.

In my humble opinion, all crafters would know some limited combat skills. It should very well be that the greater their skill in crafting, the greater the skill in combat - that they have some small measure of skill in combat, directly related to their craft.

As example:

A blacksmith can start their smithy career simply, learning to wield a hammer and pound out horseshoes and nails. As that smithy learns their craft, how many thousands of times will they swing a hammer? But still, as they learn more about the weapons and armor they make, they learn vital things about combat. In crafting suits of armor, they learns the weak spots in defense of someone who would wear that armor. As they create weapons of war, they learn how the weapon must be balanced to be effective in combat. Time will be spent swinging a sword, even if it is in the forge and against a wooden dummy, but nevertheless swung to see how the sword weighs.

This skill would never equate to the same skill as a practiced swordsman that spends most their time in the thick of battle fighting for their lives, but the skills would grow naturally nonetheless, even if the smith never leaves the forge. As the skill of the smith increases, there should be an intrinsic increase in certain related combat skills.

So, too, does the carpenter know combat. What is using a saw but using a weapon to cut thru wood? The principles of cutting and slicing thru solid objects with the least force necessary will be there. But also, as the carpenter learns to craft bows and crossbows, they would have to know how the bows are used; they would have to use them and know how to test them, better to balance and to calibrate them. They would have to fire arrows to see how a tail affects the flight, how the cut of the head can turn the arrow. And in crafting the staff, they would be swinging many and hitting solid objects to be sure of the wood's durability. Knowing their skill would give the carpenter some combat skill.

The alchemist then, who crafts no weapon would be exempt? Never. The man or woman who deals daily with the most poisonous substances that exist would no doubt have tested such concoctions. To be sure of a recipe of sleep gas' effectiveness, would they not have brewed it and tested it? Even poisons, would they not have tested them, even if from the confines of their laboratory? While the skill may not be in swinging a sword or firing a bow, the alchemist could have just as deadly combat ability: For they could simply throw a jar in the midst of their enemies and lay low the men down.

And I lastly thought about the Fisherman, wondering what skills might come naturally. Most obviously, it seemed to me that they would have the expert use of a knife. From the first day's catch, they would begin wielding the knife to clean fish. As their skill grows, most assuredly they learn - like an artist almost - how to filet flesh from bone with deadly accuracy and blinding speed. Fileting the flesh from a man or a bear may not be the same, but the basest of skill is there. Then I also began to consider that as a fisherman gains skill they learn abilities that sometimes can't be put into words. It is part an instinctual reflex to the natural movements of a living creature as the fish on their line moves to escape; it is part constitution, learning to outlast a living creature that fights for its life to escape; it is part balance, learning when to give and when to take so that the ends land in their favor to reel the quarry in. This tells me that a truly experienced fisherman would have some skills parrying, dodging, anticipating their opponents that would affect their ability to attack or defend, dodge and weave.

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And lastly to say, that these natural increases to combat ability not only exist for the crafter attacking and defending themselves in the wild. They would also apply to the adventurer who picks up crafting. An adventurer can spend all their days swinging a sword and learn that sword as an extension of their arm. But when they learn to smith, they learn the pliability of metal, the chink in a suit of armor, skills that supplement their masterful use of a blade.

So it is to say that all adventurers created equal, it is one that has crafting skill that will be just a little bit better than one without.

 

They're completely separate tracks. So you can be a blacksmith throwing fireballs, just like any other mage. If you feel that a crafting profession should closely match combat / adventuring, you're welcome to do that too.

 

Boy would I be a sore loser to make a swordsman who's beaten by a carpenter in a fight. I've posted previously that I agree with craftsmen having a few measures for self-defense - but swinging a sword around the shop in order to get a feel for the weight of the metal is a far cry from real combat experience or an apprenticeship with a real veteran.

I'd liken it to a few of my own personal experiences - a blacksmith wielding a hammer as a weapon would be like a casual gym-goer practicing the squat exercise; he's able with some demonstration and experience to physically accomplish a decent squat with 135 lbs. Weeks on weeks go by and he finds himself squatting 185 lbs. with ease - he's put on more weight and gotten stronger but next to his morning jog, his desk job, his time with friends, and his video game high scores this is just a small point of pride.

Now into the gym one day walks a veteran Olympic-style weightlifter; his only job and points of pride for the past 6 years have been adding weight to his clean & jerk and snatch exercises - not only does he squat but he does so in the middle of yanking 450 lbs. from the floor to directly over-head in one fluid motion. Years of coaching, repetition, and time in the competitive circuits have made these exercises second-nature - he doesn't have a clue when it comes to paperwork, he doesn't have many friends outside of his weight-lifting circle, and he doesn't own a single video game - he eats and breathes his sport.

To say that because a casual gym-goer has squatted with a barbell he will someday naturally be able to pull it with correct technique into a 450-lb. snatch is ridiculous. Now I've just read that craftsmen and adventurers will be able to pursue either "skill-tree" but that each is dependant on the amount of time and effort put forward respectively - and that makes a lot of sense. I think the carry-over of a master carpenter with a hammer holding his own against a tried-and-true killer with a mace is a bit of a stretch. If anything a veteran swordsman with a chair-leg should be able to beat a carpenter with a flawless katana.

 

I do agree Harrijasotzaile, to some extent. I openly suggest that the combat related skills a crafter picks up thru the daily exercise of their craft wouldn't be the same as one that focused on combat. Only that there would be some skill level bleed over. As secondary level of education one picks up while learning the primary education.

In your example, it would be sore circumstances where a swordsman is beaten by a carpenter. But hand the Carpenter a bow and he could defend himself in a fight better than someone who had never the cause to pick one up.

My point was not to compare the ability of the tradesman to compete with the warrior, only to relate that the tradesman should have some measure of skill in combat more than nothing, and that the measure of skill in combat should naturally tie in to the trade.

A simple example would be...and this is if we were using a numerical scale of skill:

After the Carpenter has crafted a hundred bows and arrows in the process of learning their skill, then their Archery skill should go up a few points. In knowing the product they craft, they gain insight to its use.

or even,

After the Master Archer has spent the time to learn Carpentry to craft a hundred bows and arrows, it should add a few points to Archery. At even a Master Level of skill, intimate knowledge of the strength and weaknesses of the wood or the arrowhead or the feather used for the flight should supplement their skill.

 

In some cases, it can make sense. A smith, for example, should be a threat with a mace type weapon or a warhammer. He has the strength, and wields a hammer all day. A forester should be a threat with an axe, but using my counter example, what does a combat tailor bring to the party?

I don't want to see the idea pushed to stupid lengths.

 

I can see the relation with a hammer or an axe and the fact that mining, chopping wood etc. may be great skills for building your strength or stamina but ya I can imagine if they made crafter combat more than just something to use to get away from weak monsters in their adventures it may throw the game out of balance. It would be a "Why level up real combat skills when i can be a crafter and kill 2 birds with one stone?" kinda thing.

So in my opinion the only crafter skills that really would need combat abilities would be the ones that need to venture into the wilderness and would possibly run into mobs such as a miner, lumberjacking, and maybe fishing and skinning.

 

In UO, by being a lumberjack, you could get a bit of a bonus on axes, but lumberjacking alone wouldn't hack it. Same with Blacksmith's and maces. I would hope that SotA would be the same.

 

Tailoring - craft a ghillie suit and camouflage your ass in a bush.

 

@Owain exactly the point to a certain extent. UO did it that with Gatherer skills, like lumberjack gained you Axe skill with degenerative gains until it reached a certain cap, I can't remember if it was something like 10 axe skill.

I don't propose a numerical system, but using it as the basis train of thought, I would propose something similar, but not the same. Well...It might be the same for Lumberjacking and Axe skill or Blacksmithy and Mace skill...

But I meant more like a set few points belonging to each craft, like those skill points spread across certain combat skill types. In my example for Carpentry, Carpenters make Bows, Staves, Clubs, Crossbows (or further to say they make Musical Instruments or Fishing Poles). On reaching a certain point, like say around level 100 skill they make Bows, they gain a point or two with Bows. On reaching Staves they gain a point or two of Staves. On reaching the level to make Crossbows they gain a point or two in Crossbow. Not that you gain the points at the beginning of the Carpentry career just on dint of being a Carpenter, that they have a flow on reaching the point of crafting the accompanying good.

And then the Archer, say the skill goes to 200, the most Masterful Archer could reach skill level 197, but those last few points will forever allude him if he never learns the finest details of the wood and the sinew that go into crafting a bow. He could have learned the skill at level 0, having never picked a bow up before, or at level 100 after having spent many battles plucking his enemies. Or he could wait til the wizened pinnacle of his career, but regardless, learning to make a bow be a part of being the perfect archer.

But anyways, at the least, like UO showed, not just the tie of certain skills together, but the levels of a skill and the quantity of the craft having more intelligence applying those attributes.

 

Since combat and craft skill trees don't share the same skill pools.. (and therefore don't affect a players ability to learn either or both)... isn't this discussion rather moot? If the crafter wants to fight they learn combat skills like everyone else. Simple as that.

Though I'm not opposed to a small crossover bonus simply because the crafter understands the weapon.. but that's a far cry from being effective in using it.

 

@Owain

What does a Combat Taylor bring to the party?

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