A not so random skill selection

After stepping back and thinking about it for a while I think the combat skill system being proposed may actually be quite fun, but imagine if it took into account our previous choices for combinations of skills and at what took place when those choices were made. It would be nice if the skill system learned from our previous choices and still delivered some skills at random, but also starts learning when specific skills are relevant to us personally in our specific situation.

Would it be possible that the skill system to learn how we tend to use a particular "deck" that we created? I think that would better simulate your character's experience in battle. It would also create a sort of learning curve for newly built decks in the future of our character.

 

I have nothing against the decks if they group everything on the same buttons and make sense. e.g. 1-4 are always some kind of "defend" "interrupt" "swing" "finisher".

 

I like that. So let me get this straight your proposing that only certain types of skills fill certain gaps or locations on the tool bar (or whatever it is). So something like weapon based skills show up in the first set, armor based skills in the second, spells in the third. OR is it like agility based skills show up in slot one (or F1 key), then Sword based skills show up in slot 2 (F2 key) etc etc... ???

Whatever the case may be the TYPE of skill should fall in a logical arrangement.

 

I kind of thought that the card system would help some macro loop from killing us real fast.
So you can't just program out a series of plays if the cards switch around everytime.

 

I want to show my intent. That's me in control of my character.
So if I press "1" or "q" or whatever, this is something defensive. Maybe I block with a shield or heal myself. By "defend" more or less means tank the blow in place.
If I press the next skill "cc/interrupt" I'm trying to stop the person from attacking be with an aggressive defensive move. A shield bash, pinning a sword arm, etc.


I'm looking to see 3-5 skills which fit into these categories. Which can get mapped to 1-4 or qer and mouse or a game pad, whatever.

Skills which aren't combat / action oriented can fit into something else. A summon is really a passive, light is really a toggle. These really have nothing to do with my combat moves.

 

macros will kind of become obsolete with this system I think, and that's good in my opinion. I like the idea of being able to have some things automated but there ought to be some interesting decisions to make.

Also keep in mind we have to keep track of how much available focus we have since all skills will spend some focus points. So managing your focus while setting up your combos, and manuvering your character will create a lot of randomness to our decisions. So I think the best would be to select what keys you want to use to select skills and maybe a few macros to use items in your backpack would be all we need in this system. Wands too. Say you have one wand of fireball and you set a macro to use that in a single click and another button for %last target%.

 

Yeah that sounds good. We should be able to assign what keys we want to activate skills. Besides the number of skills available at a single time will change depending upon what armor type we wear. Maybe with light armor the first two slots can be one kind of thing, and the next two... but that's a tangent subject. I like the idea personally.

 

Well we are probably all going to have different preferences for HOW the sorting works, but I bet that HAVING the sorting will result in a WHOLE lot of people who aren't bothered by the card system anymore. *I* would propose that individual skill "cards" be identified not merely as weapon skills, or defense skills, but with as many applicable designations as possible, and then let the individual player set restrictions on his or her hotkeys, so that the system puts cards on that key that are what the player wants. That way, PrimeRib could check a few boxes in the UI settings and get defend, interrupt, swing, finisher. But Isaiah could set things up and get agility, sword, spell, item, wand. Whereas I could set it up so that I get ranged pull, defense, aoe, heal, power hit, dot. And Timmy could set up four unrestricted buttons, getting everything randomly, and roll his face back and forth on the keyboard as a way of amusing himself. THAT gives the game real cusomizability and control while also introducing the randomness of a card system.

I think macros will be controllable IF they are worked out with reasonable rules and restrictions at the beginning.

 

The point of the deck system is that it isn't so random.. you aren't just randomly getting your skills/spells. you are planning a strategy for your fights with choosing which skills and how many of each to put in. The randomness can be as low as coin flip if you get what you want or not(likely it will be more like a 6 sided dice roll). and if you build it right you'll always have something you can use, even if it isn't the best for that situation.

 

Which basically means players will have tons of skills they choose not to use for the privlidge of being more likely to use a good skill.

It makes me think of this:

 

choose not to use in a particular situation. Just like any other game. Ofcourse I'm not going to use my tank(agro) skills when i'm fighting solo against a fire elemental, im going to use my water spells...

 

i can see how that works, but theres got to be a fine line about "Playing the System" and "Playing the Game".

I think there is potential with this system, but I'm still quite skeptical from what I've heard. A lot of the strategies I've heard so far are just ways to try and manage your skills so they have a greater likely hood of of appearing when you need them.

If it turns out to be that way I hope they do away with the system so we can focus on fighting our opponents not fighting our deck system.

It seems really silly to me to hope your skill shows up when you need it. If you know it you know it. If the charater is actually you and you are thinking of a plan of attack in your head why won't the skills come up in your head??? Sure in combat you have to think fast. However theres a difference between being a beginner in combat and being an expert.

When I played High School football I learned some skills to get past offensive linemen. However it wasn't until I played in college that I learned what those skills were really useful for. There is no quicker decision making in full contact sports than what a defensive lineman has to make when the ball is snapped. We had split seconds to deterimine if it was a pass, or what type of block was happening... were you getting double teamed, did the lineman in front of you block another person (thinking a trap might be comming), or did they pass block you and let you get by so they can throw a screen pass in which case you needed to know what to do. It goes on and on, and the 3 inch thick defensive playbook also had to be in your head, and each week learning about the players in front of you. In fact I cannot explain it to a person who hasn't experienced it. It gets even more percise at the professional level. SO SKILLS YOU PRACTICE REGULARLY, AND YOU ARE AN "EXPERT" IN DO NOT COME UP AT RANDOM PERIOD!!!

We'll see how it is durring alpha and beta testing. Either way the skills we know should be at our disposal instantly right when we need them. It should never be random. If I (the player) don't think of then I miss using the skill, but if I think of the skill and can't use it because of some game mechanic that's a bad game mechanic.

 

What I have a hard time understanding is this:

1) The system as developing is turning out to be very complicated and restricting, yet somehow more interesting to people who don't pvp who think it will balance the field. And as much as I find my self surprised to agree with Isaiah, he is right, most of the strategies so far are designed to make the skills you want show up when you want them. As someone else said in the other thread, if you have to design so many ways to get the system to work in your favor, it probably isn't a good system.

2) What is the whole purpose of this system? Supposedly from what has been posted, it is to make combat such a 'chaotic' 'randomized' encounter as to give everyone that one last hope that the battle will turn in their favor at the darkest hour, and to level the pvp playing field to protect us from the 12 yr old super geniuses. (really?) Why is everyone willing to spend all this time 'learning' to stack decks etc etc, but not willing to spend time learing 'player skill' based pvp? I have a hard time understanding how people think they can 'learn' to stack decks better, but somehow they never seem to figure out those ever elusive macros that = 'I WIN' Those 12 yr old super geniuses must also be really good at keeping secrets.

Here's just a few points I want to express:

1) This system is not going to change your long term experience of pvp. The people who are good a pvp are good at it because they like it, practice it, spend more time doing it than anything else in the game, and just by the sheer laws of physics and nature will always be more skilled at combat pvp than people who don't spend that time doing it, no matter what system is in place. Professional baseball pitchers who grew up from age 5 playing baseball will always pitch better than amatuers no matter what the rules of the game are.

2) This system will not offer the type of pvp content and control that the hardcore pvp crowd expects and desires, and could possibly result in SoTA not drawing a large percentage of that cash paying crowd for any real length of time strictly because of the fact that they are not allowed to use their skill in combat. Skill in 'stacking decks' or skill in being 'smart' enough to button mash the right keys when the right icon appears on the screen is laughable to people who are used to traditional UO based combat where player skill at real time decision making and reflex control were the largest determinants in the outcome of a 1 on 1 pvp encounter, and even a 3 on one encounter. That's what makes pvp be 'player vs player'. It's my experience and skill IN REAL TIME BATTLE against the person's on the other end, not my 'skill' in stacking a deck before hand or my skill in 'swapping decks' from my pve to pvp deck, and certainly not my 'skill' in having the right skill in whatever weighted randomness appear and being 'smart' enough to click it. It's just not that way for people who truly enjoy pvp. That's why they don't like the other games out there with 'cooldown timers' and 'decks'. Most of them want to play this game because they liked the player skill based system that was in UO and it is certainly not unreasonable for them to expect a similar player skill based system in this game, being it's from the creator of the former. Now if you want to have a discussion on whether you want those customers in the game or not, that's a different discussion.

3) There is a VERY VERY large misconception among most of the people on these boards about what experienced pvp skill as we define it is. I assure you, there are no magic macros that you just push over and over again until you win. If two of these 'macroers' are fighting each other, who wins? For every 'combo macro' someone tries that is somewhat effective, talented people develop a counter move for, which explains why the 'magic build' always changes. Hrrmmm, what is that called . . . creativity and ingenuity? Player skill based pvp like in UO just does not work the way that has been described. People who consider themselves experienced pvp'ers don't even like to use macros, because you lose control of timing and the ability to make split decisions based upon the actions or reactions of your opponent. That timing and control and being better at it is what makes them good. The 'press macros over and over until you win' is just a myth. This system will do nothing to keep '12 yr olds' from playing this game and being '12 yr olds'. What is really truly satisfying is when you use your own experience and skill to spank those 12 yr olds in combat like the kids they are. I don't see how I as a person who considers myself an experience pvp'er can find much satisfaction in combat in the system as described.

4) What I fear is this: This system is being designed for the purpose of enticing the pve crowd into pvp, as well as for the sake of trying to be innovative in the combat area of this game. Most all of the people who have voiced the strongest concerns about this are the pvp crowd, ( some others yes, but the 'strongest' perscentage wise). This system does not offer on its surface or even going deeper, anything close to what that customer base expected or wants. That could tarnish this game's pvp image from the very get go. The pve crowd who gives pvp a try now because they think all those 12 yrs olds and mean evil pk'ers will suddenly be on even footing with them, and when they realize the truth, will be discouraged by pvp and go back to the other 90% of the game they have already, and leave pvp in this game nothing but a tarnished mess that doesn't draw the pvp fans to this game. (which I know is perfectly fine with most of you, but we have every equal right to want to play this game and enjoy what we enjoy, as you do. That's the supposed 'new thing' about this game right? . . . selective multiplayer . . . .no one forces you to pvp, why can't we offer marketability to that customer base also by giving them what they want in a player skill based system?)

5) I find a lot of contradiction in the expressed opinions where no one wants 'macro based skill combat' but it is perfectly ok to use macros for 'wands' and 'stuff in your pack'? Shouldn't there also be a slot for those items that work in the same system. It makes perfect sense to also need to stack a deck for your items as well.

Many games have grappled with this issue and most all of them have done it poorly because they all keep trying different 'systems' to 'balance pvp'. There is not and never will be balance. Its just impossible to do it in any way that is interesting or fun. The experience of the end user will always be a factor no matter the system, which means exactly what I said above, all of the things you dislike about your experiences with pvp are not going away unless there simply is no pvp in this game. There is no magic fix for experience, determination, and human nature.

 

I'm amazed that we agree on something. I didn't read your whole post but from what I read it seems to be logical.

If the character is supposed to be us then why can't we use a skill when we think about it?

It would be fine if there wasn't a completely RANDOM element to it. The random part is the bad element. I personally hate it when games that I have the skill to win but I lost because of luck (the joystick or button got stuck etc). Those types of moments aren't fun. If I'm totally better than somebody and i get a run of bad luck I won't find that an acceptable loss.

Get rid of the random luck component and make the system more predictable.

 

^ That. Right. There. Is the reason for most of our issues in the forum. When people cannot sit down for a few short moments and read through someone's post, then despite not reading it all, agrees with it. How do you know if it is logical, if you did not read the entire post?

If someone can't read a post, then I suppose it would be impossible for them to also wait for the system to be tested in Alpha without posting constantly about how crap the system they haven't played is yet, right? Yeah, certainly looks that way.

 

Well sorry I don't have time to read a wall of text.

 

I think the point we are making is that it isn't the system that is 'crap' (your word not mine), it is the underlying concept. There are plenty of ways to address the issues that this system supposedly addresses (newness, ingenuity, drawing people to pvp, reducing so called 'macro warriors') without taking away timely player control of 'their' earned skills. I'm for all the bells and whistles you want in this game, but just let 'me' play my character. Is it not possible to have a magical, wonderful, cure-all system that makes everyone only lose a fight 20% of the time without taking that away which is 'critical' to the playstyle of a large group of people?

I wonder where all those players are that lose the rest of the time? Not sure how the math works on that . . . . but generally no one ever accused me of being grumpy AND smart . . . .

 

That was a smaller post. I have to leave this thread because it's upsetting me for no reason. We haven't even seen the system play out, but I can tell you the more I think about a random system the word crap rings in my mind. I have to cut out of here because it's just going to piss me off.

 

LOL, i hear ya, I was just trying to get it all out, because I'm past this for the most part now, just extremely, extremely, disappointed in the turn of events and really unsure of the future of what I most wanted out of this game, which was quality pvp content that would draw a large percentage of the pvp consumer base. It saddens me that just like in UO for the past 5? 8? yrs of it's decline the pve crowd is seems totally unwilling to throw the pvp crowd even a bone. I mean good grief, if the game designers said here's 3% of the map that you can have player skill based open pvp and good reasons to do it BUT . . . . . . everyone has to wear these pink bunny ears and this fluffy cotton tail . . . . . . . well, i'd be the hoppingest grumpy you ever did see . . . . .

I for one, will give you a pass for not reading my rabble, and a +1 for being more 'reasonable' in your discussions than I, and a promise of two weeks free future pvp lesson

 

Perhaps their Plan Z is to splinter combat systems. New system for PvE, old system for PvP.