Archery Feedback

Sorry if some of the changes or stuff mentioned here doesn't belong to this release.

GENERAL

• Removing the need for special arrows is appreciated. I saw them there though, even used Bola arrows for a while with no noticeable difference. Hope to get some news regarding those.
• Free attack works like a charm. I can control how much damage my character can do without any focus cost. It would be even better if it wasn't because the bow can fire anti tank ammunition as well (Aimed shot, i'm looking at you!). Of course it shares the problem of being a recently added mechanic, and all the systems need to change to adapt to this way of attacking.
• Range is still an issue. I need to get too close to be able to shoot an enemy... even to target it.
• Maybe is just my biased human mind, but i'm more comfortable with the damage ranges now, so hoorraaaay for the math changes.

SKILLS

• Good with the tier changing of innate skills! Having ammo scavenger early lessens the economic impact of being an archer.
• Aimed shot is OP. With its casting time removed, it feels like i'm firing a sniper rifle. I'm only level 38 and with three or four stacks it's not surprising to see hits for over than a hundred. And i haven't maxxed Draw Strength (ranged damage innate) yet...
• Disabling shot works fine. It does a decent amount of damage and slows my opponent. The more i stack the more it's slowed. Neat!
• Piercing shot is sad (because aimed shot is OP). It's damage is bad (compared with aimed shot) and I've been doing mostly PVE so i have no way of knowing if i've been shooting well armored targets... but anyway, aimed shot always wins. Maybe there's something i'm missing, but from my point of view this skill is currently a wasted arrow.
• Piercing Breeze is cool. Push away the enemies and sometimes they stand in the ground. Cool! Problem is that i have to choose between "chance of push back and knock back" and "fire a truck at your enemies", since one of the elements of the combo is Aimed shot.
• Shock arrow is also a nice move, basically the same effect as discharge (less stun duration) but ranged. Two complains here; this spell doesn't share the range of the rest of my ranged attacks, and once again chance of stunning takes away what's a high damage hit for sure.
• Havent tried Blinding Shot on this release... it seems nice as a skill to fight ranged enemies and to do some group support. But i bet it does way less damage than a train in your face so... Aimed shot!.

CONCLUSIONS

• Archery has improved indeed, but mostly because Aimed Shot has improved greatly. Being the first skill on the tree and being the only one required for combos puts the rest of skills (and combos) in a far a way second position. I think that kind of power belongs to an upper tier, putting Piercing shot as first option. Won't talk about casting time since we're supposed to be able to charge skills, i think.
• I also think Combos should be diversified, not requiring the same ranged skill in all of them. From my point of view Shock arrow should use Disabling shot (changing a CC for another) and Piercing breeze should use Piercing shot (taking the risk of making it useful).

That's all... for now.

EDIT: After writing this i noticed that by removing the requirement for special arrows we had skills that doesn't require arrows at all. I'm always saying that ammunition is a bother... but that's where i draw the line. I expect for all skills to require normal arrows at the very least, and hope this is changed. I know i complained about NPC's having imaginary arrows... but now that my wish came true i'm scared please make my skills require arrows again... just... not much

 

I don't think that aimed shot is over powered, especially considering how much damage spells like earthquake and ring of fire do to multiple targets. I consider it the bread and butter of ranged combat. Also, the mechanics of it haven't changed for at least a couple of releases now.

 

^ think there was a mention from one of the Devs yesterday that OPness would disappear - after they let us enjoy it for a while because we not having the luv fo so long, we get to enjoy it a bit before they take it away.

 

Sorry, for me Aimed shot not having casting time was a new thing, since last release i played was at the end of last year. My point is that aimed shot is the best attack on all the skill tree by far, and that is foreshadowing the rest. I like having a high damage attack, but if its going to keep this model the rest of skills should have its damage outcome balanced (for example, there's no point in using Piercing shot, an attack that pierces through armor, if aimed shot does more damage even considering the armor. I want to check how well both go by shooting a full plated character, as soon as i have some data i'll put it here.

Yeah, Chris said somethink like that... let's see what happens on R21, because things are gona change a lot and everything may just go bananas.

 

What I would like to understand, is why would the need for removing the special purpose arrows be a good thing? What makes them so different from ordinary arrows?

I mean, it's not that there is anything "special" about them -- historically arrowheads were very diverse and actually used for specific purposes -- in fact various kinds of arrowheads are among the most common archaeological finds.

 

It's a good thing for me (and remembering the acceptance they had when they came online, for many other people) because i don't see the fun in managing different kinds of arrows. I had to do that last time i played and was quite bothersome, and seeing the reason behind it (realism, different resources for different effects) is not enough to convince me. Managing different kind of resources is a bother, and since bludgeon wielders may knock out a person just by pushing a button, why shouldn't my disabling shot slow somebody because i shot him in the foot, or in the leg? do i really need a bola arrow?

I'm happy that they removed the requirement for special arrows for skills because of the reasons stated in the last paragraph, but i expected all of them to require normal arrows (as we've been discussing in Bowen analysis of ranged skills). I only noticed them not requiring arrows AT ALL after reading your post, so i'm going to edit that point to reflect my disagreement with that.

It's true, they existed and they should belong in the game. I don't want "special" arrows to go away... what i don't like is the way they have been implented, not its existance; that's why i'd like is to repurpose them. I don't want to need different kind of arrows for different kind of skills, i'd like to be able to use all my skills with different kinds of arrows. That way, if i shoot bodkin arrows i'm getting an extra armor penetration with all my skills, if i shot broadhead arrows there's a chance of bleeding for my enemy, and if i shot flare arrows the phyiscal damage is greatly reduced but i can do fire damage instead. You can still carry different kinds of arrows, but now you can manage them by changing the kind of ammunition you'll use each time.

To me this makes as much sense as having a different arrow for each kind of skill and it's more fun, since each kind of arrow gives you a choice, hence more depth to the combat style.

 

I think I understand your point, but respectfully submit that it is somewhat more complicated than that.

I agree that arrow management might not be in the Top 10 of the funniest things in the universe. It is a tedious chore. I have made it a part of my routine: At home, before going somewhere, check and repair armor as necessary, check that you have the reagents that you need/want, take with you 777 ordinary arrows and 77 each kind of special arrows. That's it It is still a chore, mostly because the present system does not really allow any strategic planning (see below).

I also agree that -- actually that's a nice example! -- shooting a disabling shot should not necessarily require a bola arrow. However, whether or not an ordinary arrow would be sufficient depends on the armor that your target is wearing. If you're against plate leggings and plate boots, you would have better odds with a bodkin than an ordinary arrow. A natural way to do that would be by combo attack (disabling shot + bodkin). However this is impossible in the present system, where skills and arrows have a tight 1-1 relationship -- and it's SKILLS that come first -- you simply cannot select with which arrow you want to shoot.

Allow me to present a slightly more elaborate (but totally imaginary) example about the previous point. Suppose you loot a master lich archer that you just managed to kill, and find 4 "Arrows of Death", apparently providing some scary death magic [de]buff associated with the arrows. You're eager to go and test what they do...guess what, you just can't. The game does not provide any mechanism to use those arrows, because you'd need to have an appropriate "Shoot Arrows of Death" skill glyph in your skill tree. And even if these happened to be e.g. "Bodkin Arrows of Death", that you might try to shoot with your piercing arrow skill, you'd need to get rid of all you other bodkins in your inventory, because there is just no way of telling which kind of bodkins would be selected. The strategic implications of this -- that you actually do not "shoot arrows", you just "apply arrow SKILLS" -- should be obvious: There will never be any really special arrows in the game (this is why my example is totally imaginary), or even such a variety of arrows that would merit any strategic consideration in arrow selection. Therefore you're quite right in that arrow management indeed is a tedious chore. BUT to my mind that is a self-fulfilling prophecy, limiting how awesome archery could actually be.

FWIW, I wrote some musings about this on the dev forum. Very briefly, all arrow specific skills should be innate, attack glyphs should be arrow container "slots" that you can fill with whatever you like, there would be a default attack associated with an arrow (but it could be overridden with a combo, for example that bodkin+disable attack). One also use could use aimed shot with just about any arrow by comboing it (whether or not it makes sense depends on the arrow, for example aimed shot + bodkin would make a lot of sense against armored opponents).

Exactly. I think combos would be a natural way of doing just that, except that one should first get rid of the 1--1 skill--arrow relationship (or to be more precise, it's rather a 1-->1 skill-->arrow relationship...).

 

It seems to me we're thinking alike. But i don't think its so complicated. Allow me to slantely use your words...

Therefore if we get rid of that kind of relationship there's a chance for us to use really interesting ammunition system. Removing the requirement for skills to use arrows is indeed a band-aid, but i think is a step that push archery away from that 1-1 model.

I like what you suggested about being able to assign certain kind of ammo to skills, but that's difficult to manage in combat. Your suggestion about overriding it by combining the skill with other kind of ammunition... Then you'll need to put arrows into the skill deck (clogging it, or being forced into locking it and losing a skill slot) and also it would require at least 4 keystrokes to shoot with current combo system (if you need to "load" manually an arrow by combining it everytime you want to shoot).

All possibilities! What would be best for me (from a logical and realistic standpoint) is to include a system that allow us to manage all this objects during combat. It's something i'd like to have around so i wrote a proposal for that in this thread. I shouldn't be forced into decide which kind of arrow i'm going to use before parting home (slotting ammunition) nor to decide everytime what kind of ammunition i'm going to use (combining ammunition). What's more logical to me is to carry two or three quivers (or the kind of ammo holder you like) and to be able to choose between them and keep that choice until i say so, without resorting into additional interfaces. "Oh look that warrior is wearing half of spectral mines in the form of a full plate armor, better to get my bodkins". "This enemy runs like hell! i'd use my broadheads so it bleeds out while i run". "Another bandit? better to use the standard arrows".

 

But ammo is already assigned to skills in the present system (e.g. bodkins->piercing, flares->blinding etc). The difference is that in the current system it's the other way around, i.e. special skills are primary, and there is a specific skill for each arrow. I think many of the "special" skills are actually superfluous and unnecessary -- they are there only to provide a combat glyph for the combat bar. For example, actually there actually is no special "armor piercing skill" - it's just shooting an arrow that can pierce armor. So what I proposed wouldn't be any more difficult (or much more different) than the present system. These are reasonable defaults that one probably uses 90% of the time, for example, bola arrows are typically used for slowing the target down, not for much else. Bodkins are essentially just more robust versions of the standard arrow, with better armor piercing capability.

What I suggested is optional functionality on top of that, and it's kind of the other way around -- one overrides the default attack type (say bodkin -> just a normal attack) simply by combining it with another skill (like a slowing down attack). The role of skills is rather different in my proposal -- firstly skills are NOT assigned to arrows, and secondly most of the arrow-related skills are innate. And as I already mentioned above I said, for 90% of the time it wouldn't be necessary to modify the default skill associated with the arrow. But it can be done if need arises.

Combo would only be needed if one wants to modify the default. Otherwise it would work more or less like now -- just point and shoot with one click/stroke (unless you want to do stacking). The main difference would be that in archery, arrows are primary, not skills. See below..

This is more or less what I suggested in the dev forun post. The basic idea is that one has one or more slots (=quivers if you will), the first quiver/slot is the default quiver, also used in auto-attack. It would be typically filled with standard arrows, but nothing would be stopping putting something else in there. You can freely modify the contents of the quivers. Slots/quivers then appear as glyphs in the combat bar (one can use them dynamically or lock some of them up).

 

I consider your suggestion as better that what we have now indeed because it gives arrows a real presence (at least they're required to shoot lol) but from my point of view it has a fatal flaw.

by making ranged work around the arrows instead of the skills you're shifting its focus from skills to arrows, and to me that's almost as lacking as having a skill for each arrow. If i understood that correctly, you got quivers ready, put them in your deck and use them to attack... so i got my bola arrow quiver to slow down opponents, and my bodkin arrow to pierce the armor of an opponent... I honestly don't see how is that different than having different skills that requires different arrows. I think it's simpler to manage the arrows in the way i suggested, and just use normal attack to just fire arrows (in the same way you suggested to use quivers)

You also mentioned the possibility of adding additional effects to an arrow by combining it with a special skill... that's more taxing than just choose a kind of arrow and then use all your skills with that ammunition. I should be able to slow down a plate armored warrior with normal arrows even if they do less damage than bodkins, and the slow imposed may last less since my arrow usually don't go through its armor... I should be able to do a fast shot without that does almost no damage to that spellcaster in an attempt of messing his concentration and interrupting his spell with all my arrows. And i should be able to draw my bow with full strength to make a powerful shot that requires time to be shot, but do a lot of damage whatever the arrow i'm shooting. I fail to see why i need to do something as taxing as a combo, when i could just choose the ammunition i want and then all my skills draws from that kind of ammunition.

I do get what you're trying to explain, and i'm happy because even when we're discussing about the way, we both want to achieve the same... but i can't help it, i think my suggestion is less taxing and has more possibilities . If this reach the devs they shall deem it as worthy or unworthy, and surely they'll end coming up with something even better (they usually do that) but i really hope that ranged not only gets some love in terms of damage, but also the way it works internally with its ammunition.

 

Yes, I think we're more or less on the same page.

First I want to emphasize that some arrows certainly do require special skills. All shooting is mostly based on generic shooting skills, and most arrows might "use" only the generic skills, but there may also be arrow specific skills that add modifiers to the "base" ranged skill. For instance, bola arrows may be somewhat unwieldy, and therefore require some "getting used to" before they can be used efficiently. Burst arrows require a specific technique that needs to be mastered first -- these can be reflected in specific innate (use based) skills.

Anyway, the two main differences (to the present skill-oriented system) are:

a) It is possible to make use of many different arrows, without the game mechanics getting in the way. For example, if we just talk about "ordinary" arrows, I might want to carry a bundle of el cheapo arrows, some premium quality ones -- of course lovingly crafted them myself -- that have a bit less range due to their weight, but also add more damage and can be scavenged, some hardened bodkins for the armored guys (expensive) , and a few really nasty broadheads (as expensive as they are nasty). And I want to be able to choose any of them on a whim, in the middle of a battle. And if I run out of some type of arrows, I want to be able to just replace them with something else, without modifying my combat slot arrangement, even in the middle of battle. So I can, simply by putting exactly what I want to different arrow slots (quiver compartments) -- provided of course that I'm skilled enough so that I have a sufficient number of slots.
(this is why I like to speak of slots instead of quivers, it might well be just one quiver, but compartmentalized so that one can put different kinds of arrows in there and still be able to pick a correct one easily).

b) More flexibility in using the skills, without (IMO) sacrificing usability. Of course your proposal does this as well.

You may be right, but I suspect it depends a lot on one's personal playstyle related preferences.

It'd be a tough thing to balance even with abundant dev resources, so I guess it will takes some time in any case

 

Well i really HATE spells without reagents, and i HATE archery without arrows. If reagents/arrows are difficult/expensive to get, that problem should be addressed lowering cost/weight of them.

That is all i want to say, thanks to bring out the subject