Balancing Innate Skills

Hybrids shouldn't be weak overall. They shouldn't be as strong as a specialist in the specialist's chosen skills per say.. but they should be as strong overall.

 

Strength through variety of options yeah but a specialist should always be stronger in his chosen field than a jack-of-all-trades surely.

 

Exactly.

 

This is where it is mentioned in Darkstarr's post : https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/pvp-death-current-thinking-megapost.8247/

you don't seem to understand that PvP will be entirely consensual. There will be no gear grind for PvP gear unless you are PvP and whats more that gear will only work against people that are flagged PvP. Even then the grind will be crafting not killing 10,000 liches.

I see what you are saying with that last bit about people on the fence about becoming PvP. Truth is, with a leveling system, there will always be level 80s which we will see in the first months who will dominate the PvP areas, so if you are arguing for PvP hand holding then i don't think you will see a lot of support for that.

 

I had almost the same build before. it takes 48 adventuring points to max out the earth innates. Maybe that number is nothing to a level 27, but I doubt it.

here it is from the mouth of the horse. if there is new info regarding this on the forum or website published by someone on the dev team please prove me wrong. I am not totally on board with this plan, just trying manage my expectations.

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/pvp-death-current-thinking-megapost.8247/

 

I can't see PvP skills doing anything but discouraging PvE'ers from participating even more.

Giving people who PvP skills to enhance their ability to kill non-PvP players would be ridiculous. Like a player who PvPs daily would need even more of a base advantage over a non-PvP player.

 

streamathon on the port youtube channel
https://www.youtube.com/user/Portalarium
it shows that this is not settled and that those on the dev team that don't like it seems to be gaining grounds...

So not proof either way, but rather proof that the part you quoted are very much changing...

 

the pvp skills on that plan wouldn't be usable on players that aren't flagged pvp. sorry to get off topic

 

couldnt find the video you refer to but i hope you are right

 

Yeah, but it either means specifically re-speccing every time you want to PvP (Which probably wont be easy on release) or accepting that you will be at a disadvantage against a full-time pvp player. You should be at a disadvantage because they pvp a lot, not because they have skills that give them an advantage.

It would just further discourage PvE players entering pvp zones.

 

This is a completely valid point.

 

By what rationale? Where are hybrids weaker than single strategy approaches? Hybrid materials are stronger, hybrid militaries are more adaptable, hybrid cars get further on less gas, hybrid plants can thrive and provide food where both parent plants would have failed...

Unless you are deliberately building a hybrid to fail, the POINT of a hybridization is that it is stronger than the original parts.

Where is it written that hybrids should be weaker?

 

We're talking in individual areas, not overall.

 

When it comes to knowledge and training, somebody that puts every waking hour into one field is much more likely to excel IN THAT FIELD than somebody that dabbles in everything, i already stated that the strength of a hybrid comes from adaptability so i am not sure why you chose to ignore it.

 

I completely understand that PvP will be consensual. That means I can opt in whenever I like, and opt out whenever it wouldn't be considered cheating. You know what else is optional, playing the game. Or using the internet. Or even turning on my computer. Fascinatingly, odds are that everyone playing PvP will have opted in to ALL of these totally consensual concepts. Imagine that!

Once they do, the gear grind caused by PvP dingles will kick in. Meanwhile, those who were CONSIDERING joining PvP will be faced by this gear grind, and have to decide whether they want to put up with the irritation. My experience is that the only thing that will get casuals across the line at that point is PvP gear that is desirable even for PvE, further complicating the issue.

As for hand holding, I think that's a crock. Giving everyone the ability to move in and out of PvP without having to utterly respec isn't hand holding, it's encouraging diversity. What if I came up with an awesome new spec that needed every talent point I had? Should I give up on that tactic to respec for PvP? Should I wait on PvP until I get the extra talent points to spec my PvP dingles?

It gets even worse if it's gear. No amount of leveling will give me more item slots, so if I have one of these thrice damned PvP trinkets, it will displace another item. Give me five PvP items, and an entire item set is consumed by these things. If they are powerful enough to work better (more advantageously, such that I would want them in the first place) then they displace the items that would otherwise be there, and every NON PvP player loses out. The BETTER GEAR comes from PvP, and welcome back to the grindathon. If the gear ONLY works better in PvP, then while non PvP players don't need to stress, the PvP players get the shaft.

See, if you play PvP, then you get PvP gear, and it doesn't work in PvE. Guess how much incentive PvP players will have to cross the barrier then? As for PvE players, they see a game they don't understand, full of problems that seem like getting your character reset back to noobhood. IF they invest, they get gear that only works for this strange and not so interesting new game... and why are they doing this again?

So if the gear IS better, it causes a grind, if it isn't, then it just widens the divide between PvE and PvP.

Now, this IS all my opinion, but I have been thinking about this since long before SotA started it's kickstarter. The way to bring PvP and PvE worlds closer together is to move their resources together. Identical gear, identical powers, and as close to identical tactics as possible. Make what works in PvP work in PvE, and vice versa. Let players wander in and out of both worlds without having to regear or respec, just trying what they like. If their build isn't very good, they get spanked. Just like what happens to poorly optimized characters in any other situation. Unlike the scenario with the PvP dingles, however, if a player wants to try a new spec, they just try it. PvP, PvE, the only thing that matters is how well they build the character. If they pick up or craft an interesting piece of gear, they don't have to worry about whether it's PvP or PvE, they get to focus on whether it is more desirable for how they want to play or not.

And that's how I think it should be.

 

Because you then stated that pure builds SHOULD be stronger. Better at the things they do purely nolo contendre, but STRONGER? If you make pure builds stronger, you make hybrids weak. That's MY point.

 

What you are campaigning for will result in a very small number of builds being the only viable option, Bowen is looking to achieve the opposite.

 

Just a quick note: Specialization should come at a cost, and not just in terms of being so focused skill-wise. If you have a "pure" build, they SHOULD be powerful, especially in comparison to a hybrid build. However, that power should come with a weakness that can be exploited. Likewise, you sacrifice the peak power of a pure build for skill diversity and flexibility in a hybrid build, so you are not as purely powerful, but you are likewise not left in a position where you are vulnerable.

Just my thoughts on it.

 

Quite true.

My thinking on this is that pure and hybrid builds are, in and of themselves, without MORAL value. There is nothing about a pure build that makes it more worthy, or more worthwhile. Nor is there anything about hybridizing that makes IT more worthy, or more worthwhile.

Therefore, my POINT here is that neither deserves special treatment. We shouldn't be subsidizing build styles before this game has even reached it's first official commercial release. If a build, pure or otherwise, is superior, people will gravitate towards it, and if a build is inferior the inverse will happen. If the devs then focus on improving ability trees that get ignored ever so slightly or nerfing profoundly overpowered abilities ever so slightly, then as long as the population evens out and all regions of the ability trees are getting relatively equal amounts of love, the question of pure or hybrid will solve itself. If a tree is good for hybridization, it will be used by hybridizers. If it's good for a certain playstyle all by itself, it will be part of pure builds.

Really though, EVERY play style will be a hybrid after about level 30, since you'll run out of places to spend ability points in a single tree. After that it's just a question of what KIND of hybrid build you're running.

 

might I recommend Street Fighter 2, then once you get bored of that, try Street fighter 2 Turbo. No gear, no grind, no internet, no computer. Endless PvP action!