Banish Undead balance or nerf you be the judge

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Oremanger, Feb 26, 2020.

  1. Elrond

    Elrond Avatar

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    I dont do control points so not sure what the regs consumption is ... but if you do can you post regs consumed in 1 h of CP with an Ashen Staff ? ( 40% less regs used and no 200% reg cons. artifacts ) ...i doubt its noticable...
     
  2. kaeshiva

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    I'm not just talking control points, although yes, in a full group at a CP you don't get that much loot, due to the 8-way split and a lot of the corpses despawning. I do typically use a warlock chain and I'm willing to accept a bit of of additional expense from that, but we've gone from having to have like 200 of each reagent for an hour's play, to running out when I buy 1000 of each with no real changes to my gameplay. Its definitely a 'noticeable' change. I've considered using ashen weps but the displayed decrease to reagent use isn't linear. Although you're absolutely right, it would help 'a bit'.

    I don't really object to reagent use, but rather the sudden pendulum-swing spike increase that doesn't seem to be balanced by what you can earn. Some spells are costing like 20-30 gold PER CAST and you might need to cast them 10-12 times in a fight, or more. You don't see weapon users having to use rare-drop component, lower-damage alternate weapons to prevent hemmoraging money while fighting. There's no parity here.
     
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  3. Elrond

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    I took CP as an example as i noticed thats where people like to spend time now ..as for the ashen staffs ... had custom orders for them ...so im guessing people are ditching the op stuff for gear that cost them less reagents ... Anyway i see only the gear side here so until someone can post some numbers i can just speculate...

    What i would like to see in this thread from people who say reagents use is just too high

    - Average consumption per hour with 2 ankhs + 1 warlock
    - Average consumption per hour with 1 Ashen Staff with 40% reg save + 1 warlock
    - Average consumption per hour with just 1 Ashen Staff with 40% reg save( no reagent black hole arties)

    Then i think we can begin painting a picture ... just my 2 cents .
     
  4. kaeshiva

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    Yeah I'd like to see these numbers, too.
    Problem is - Differences in deck, whether you cast things dynamically or stack, etc. are going to result in HUGE variances in any of these figures.
    I tried 2x ankh sun mage, and I dropped over 30k in reg costs for 1 hour of running around, it was nonsensical and quickly abandoned it.
    Its not as bad if I only cast solarflare as a 6stack (less frequent use) but the results are going to be all over the map.
    Fighting solo vs fighting in a group is also going to be relevant. Its nor a simple 'math problem'.


    I can only go by what I spent before the change, vs. what I spent after the change with no fundamental changes to my deck/gear loadout.
    Before the change - I'd spend a few thousand to top up regs and usually 200-250 of each was enough to go do something until my inventory was full of loot at which point I'd return to town, restock, sell, etc.
    After the change - I load up on A THOUSAND of each, and often run out before my inventory is full. I spend over 10k to top up regs.

    I know this is highly subjective. I've made my own adjustments to deck, gear, etc. to mitigate this, and have stopped using some spells entirely as their power is simply not worth what they are costing in burn. My point is that mages being forced into a position to dilute their effectiveness more and more due to cost efficiency is something that non-mages don't have to deal with at all.

    Also consider how reagent modifications actually work:

    Earthquake spell:
    No wands, no warlock chain:
    33% chance to consume reagents

    Add two wands that both add -10% reg use (total -20%)
    25.4% chance to consume
    (This does NOT linearly drop to 13%)

    Then even more baffling,
    Swap to an ashen staff with base -25% reg use
    24.8% chance to consume

    So the difference in 5% -reg cost is actually only 0.6% ...?

    They're not linear. Fine.

    Throw on a warlock chain + 200% reg use. To be clear, its PLUS 200%, so its not doubling it, its tripling it.

    Earthquake 33% base becomes 99% chance with warlock chain.
    Check

    Add ashen staff, which is meant to reduce by 25%? It goes from 99% down to 90. 8%
    If I use my 2 wands instead (which reduce by 20%, 10% ea) - its 92.4%

    Now, I agree, dumping a bunch of spell damage to use ashen instead to save myself <2% reg use would help.
    But its a drop in the bucket. I don't have one to hand, but I imagine an ashen with 40% (with the masterwork,y ea?) might drop that to high 80s %. Still hemmoraging money with pretty much every spellcast.

    Now fine - using a warlock chain is paying for power, I get that. That's not what I'm objecting to.
    I'm objecting to the changes in the base value making using the warlock chain cost 10x what it did before and that the reagent usage spike is over the top.
     
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  5. Numa

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    I'm curious as to whether reagent cost on player vendors is spiking due to demand (ie. high AoE reagent consumption).

    Asking this because it has an impact on new players who may have a home but not the space to grow their own reagents in a garden.
     
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  6. kaeshiva

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    Not really, if anything, with the changes to reagent yield and the new demand, a lot more people have started growing reagents which were, prior to the changes, pretty uneconomical to grow by comparison. The price has continued to race to the bottom until it reaches the breakeven point where you're better off growing and npc-dumping other crops again. Its nearly there now. As people decide to stop bothering and go back to npc dumping cotton, supply decreases and, prices might rise a bit. The economy is doing its job in that regard.
     
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  7. Oremanger

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    The point I was trying to make in my OP was the imbalance in the base reagent cost of the aoe spells based on how they are actually used to generate equivalent damage output. Let me elaborate, banish undead must be cast constantly as oppose to ring of fire and meteor shower. The number of banish that you have to cast to get even close to the damage of ring of fire and meteor shower in much greater. All you have to do is go out with a group with life, fire and moon mages and observe, the life mage will be constantly busy casting as opposed to the fire and moon mages that will seem to be doing nothing just looking at the fire burn and the meteors fall. Do not get me wrong I have nothing against the fire and moon mages I only have problem with the difference in reagents cost for the same output. @Chris @Elgarion

    Now about the ankhs and warlock chains, the cost for using them is already built in, you use them accepting that cost and that is not what I posted about. Also, with all due respect, before someone makes self-serving comments, please go out and kill stuff.
     
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  8. Drya

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    In the end, we all pay when your healer stops to think about the cost, when considering which spell to cast. I find I am trying to use Healing Touch as much as possible as it only costs focus. I try to save Healing Blast for emergencies and while I used to always try to keep a heal over time on players who were consistently taking a heavy damage, I now reserve Healing Grace for the tank, if my group is lucky enough to have one. I've always farmed my own regs, but as I watch my reagent reserves shrink and my bank account slowly evaporate I am getting discouraged. I put my Warlock Chain away, which helped, but I am still using the Ankh of Sacrifice. That is the best "weapon" for my class. Does using the Envy Bow cause archers to go broke? Do other "best for class" weapons mean shrinking fortunes?
     
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  9. ShurTugal

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    says the rich person with money to burn. the rich always take this stance since it doesn't impact them. they can afford it and they are always in a net positive when in regards to making money. for the poor person, its devastating and it destroys the fun of the game. In order to advance in any reasonable way, I have to pay to make it happen and I have zero approach to make any gold. Way to take a potentially great game @Chris that is struggling to take off and give the ney sayers and those on the fence of quitting or not, a reason to quit..... I firmly believe that those in a position to make a difference are completely out of touch with this game, it's community and the route to success and because of that, it's days are numbered which is unfortunate because it has a potential to be a great game and I personally have invested a lot into this game to date.......
     
  10. ShurTugal

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    Than you need to get out and actually do it. You can't comment on the situation and present valid feed back if all your doing is arm chair quarterbacking... just saying and you should have been adventuring for a while up to now and played with many different deck styles to fully understand what we are saying. I guess my prior "out of touch" statement applies to you to and that is the problem. out of touch people making changes that don't impact them without a clear understanding what they are doing... my two cents.....
     
  11. Tiina Onir

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    Personally, I think the nerf was too much, because it came from both sides. I'm okay with the making it a little more costly, but combined with the damage nerf it's just too much. We're back to the point where you're better off using less specialized skills. Specialized skills should be more effective when they are effective because most of the time they are useless.
     
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  12. Andartianna

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    I personally think the nerf went too far. I would change the 15 sec c/d back to 10 secs and then we would have a reasonable nerf. The reg costs are meh for me. This is where the wealth inequality of the game sticks out big. Because I can afford cotos to buy as much gold as I need I don't feel the pressure of reagents. I have made a lot of garlic farmers happy though. I do feel like the gold return from control points is too low. There is a constant downward pressure on my wallet from doing them. I think this could be fixed by looking at the spawn timers for the bodies. The bodies despawn so quick were not getting a wide portion of the loot we earned.
     
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  13. ShurTugal

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    I agree. I also think wealth inequality is kinda built into the game. Think about it. Lords, ladies barons, baroness, governors, etc. These are all titles centered around wealth generation. The more wealth you have the easier it is to generate wealth and unless you have systems in place for peasants to generate decent wealth of their own, (which they do not) that gap between the rich and poor just gets bigger and bigger. And then to boot, they make this reagent change which is devastating for the poor adventurer just trying to make a buck and completely meaningless for the wealthy.....
     
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  14. Numa

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    At this point I'd like to bring up the unfinished POT public garden feature which are supposed to be available to everyone who needs it and doesn't require a lot deed. For the longest time we've been waiting for our public greenhouse to be functional till the governor grew tired of waiting and gave the area to an active resident instead.

    Placing a public access greenhouse on an owner's lot is no substitute because even tax-free deeds expire. Mine did and so did the governor's at one point.

    We need to even out the playing field specially now when reagent costs are a major factor. Most new players will just have a basic row lot & house with the abysmal growth rates if you try growing something inside.

    This game shouldn't be a reflection of the RL world because most people come here to escape or forget for a while the inequalities and frustrations inherent there.
     
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  15. Drya

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    Well, I followed Elrond's advice and got a friend to make me a high level wand of Thaumaturgy and tucked my legendary Ankh of Sacrifice away in the bank, along with my Warlock Chain. It makes me sad to do that, as I went to a great deal of trouble and expense to get both pieces. These recent changes have made them untenable choices. I've also put Eastreach Gap on the back-burner, as too expensive for casters. I enjoy the challenge of high level content but realize that, as a caster, it is currently out of my price range. As a result, I find myself logging in less. Being priced out of the most challenging encounters in the game is taking the zest out of the game. I am also angry that having invested so much time, effort and gold into obtaining a legendary Ankh of Sacrifice only to find these recent changes have made its use a shortcut to poverty. *returns to the ever exciting cultivation of garlic to replenish her depleted supplies*
     
  16. Elrond

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    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Elrond

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    Fair enough ..but... all i did was ask for some data to see what the impact really was ( consumption with different wand types ) ...and presented an alternative ( ashen ) ...data which is not present in your original post .

    Is there a rule that says all aoe spells must consume the same ? If ring of fire does 5000 dmg with 20 reagents does it mean MS or Banish must do the same dmg for same reg cost ? Different schools ..different spells ...

    Control Points are for XP not for making gold .

    My current costs for crafting xp are about 500k gold for every 5 mil craft xp...yours are according to your post 0 gold spent for 5 mil combat xp ...and 30k gold profit .
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2020
  18. GMDavros

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    That picture is priceless. It sums up the emotion perfectly.

    Fenris
     
  19. Tiina Onir

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    On the contrary, because RoF and MS are AoE, DoT, and lack the specialist nature of banish, it means banish should be more powerful when it applies. That's balance. If RoF and/or MS is doing even similar damage, you should put nothing into banish and just use those, because they are useful in more circumstances anyway.
     
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  20. Cora Cuz'avich

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    (I love that you get to have your own personal facepalm.)
     
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