Can equality solve some of our conflicts?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Mac2, Mar 9, 2019.

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  1. Mac2

    Mac2 Avatar

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    This will probably be my longest post ever. I ask if your going to read this, give it your full attention. Try not to judge, compare or even think if you can while you are reading it until you are done reading it, then you can think about it, judge it and compare it and we can discuss it further from there.

    Many of us who have been here fore a while and read the forums and discord have read and maybe been part of the discussions between pvp and pve, often repeating many things that have been said before. Would it not be nice if we could find out where they stem from and get rid of the legs that these arguments stand on? So my goal here is to try and do just that.

    I am going to start off on the pvers perspective and the arguments often used by a person who does not want to pvp at all. I think most often this type of playstyle feels slighted that they cannot get some items that can only be gained from pvp zones, like the white and green dragon heads, some of the dungeon blueprints and recipes and the fall artifacts unless they buy them from someone who is willing to take the risk to get them. So if we give those players access to these items in pve zones, I think that would take the legs away from that argument. There is also the bonus 10% exp gain from being flagged in multiplayer as well, but once up to a certain level of play, you hit attenuation anyways so it really does not matter, and we should give some kind of reward for taking the extra risk of other players being able to kill us and get a ransom. Maybe this is something we can discuss to try and find a solution that most would be ok with about the bonus, IF that is an issue for anyone.

    Now the pvpers perspective and the arguments often used by a person who wants to stay in the pvp playstyle. I think most often this type of pvp playstyle person often feels slighted that the only pvp zone that compares in exp and loot to UT, LV, the rise and mysterious swamp, maybe even less, despite the extra risk of being flagged and getting killed and looted for a ransom. This one is a tougher to solve problem, especially if we give the white and green dragon heads, some of the dungeon blueprints and recipes and the fall artifacts to pve scenes, making that feeling of unfairness even stronger. So we must replace these items with items that a pvper will want, but a pver will not care if they cannot get them. It has been suggested often on other discussions about pvp items that give bonus damage or defenses vs other players and I think this is a great idea. Making a couple more areas to compare with the exp and loots of UT, LV, the rise and mystswamp would give pvp players incentive to play in the pvp zones where they want to be. This would take the legs away from this argument.
    We could even have pvp crating tables in a pvp zone or zones that would enchant/masterwork pvp abilities, dungeon blueprints and recipes that could only be used in a pvp dungeon ( although searching a bunch of dungeons for someone to kill would be painstakingly hard, so maybe this is not a good option), special pvp resources in pvp zones to craft pvp items with. Maybe even getting pvp resources for killing other players but only if we could find a way that could not be abused by someone killing an alt for them as antrax pointed out when I spit balled that idea, nice catch. I dont know if that is possible or a ton of work to do, or maybe even not possible at all.
    Another argument that often comes up from a pvp type playstyle person is we dont get any dev events for pvp stuff, its almost always pve stuff. Having more dev hosted pvp events and trying to balance that out better would take away the legs from that argument, and I THINK list would like some pvp events, he might be our guy for that but of course any devs would be more then welcome for this.

    If you really look for the root of these arguments, you can see the desire for equality. Equality takes away that feeling of being slighted, and could bring harmony between these 2 playstyles of people. We could have a game would could all enjoy together, as one group, sota gamers. Some interesting effects come from equality, just like the mythbusters episode of comparing many single lines in a grocery store to one single serpentine line, even though the serpentine line did take each person longer, they liked it better because it was fair. You can also see the nations with higher equality have less crime, better education, innovation and technology.
     
  2. craftymethod

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    The more equality there is, the less artificial walls there needs to be. The dev's spend so much time gating content and create these artificial walls that these zones by design seek to exclude players and ruin gameplay continuity and fluidity.

    I understand purchasing power helps acquire items that are gated in some scenes, but I just don't see the reason to have gated scenes in the first place. It just exasperates the downsides to an instanced game.

    Good read Mac.
     
  3. Lou

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    Mac, seriously man???? it seems to hear devs, good words but when we talk about facts...i really can't understand why in this game ppl think they're too smart, really.
     
  4. Lou

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    seems to hear shimizu, who first does something then denies you right.i've enough of this things, i 've had anough to shut up.
    are you the same mac that boycotted the mangar market from the shadows?i'm right?
     
  5. Arkah EMPstrike

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    I like the idea about the special masterwork/enchants in pvp zones. But i think doing things to increase damage in pvp will make it even harder to intially enter into pvp without friends.

    I find pvp rankd and titles enticing like they have set up in the trials. And chris said more of that is on the way.

    There hasnt been any pve-pvp friction for a while and has even been successful collaborations with the dark messenger events and Boris and Cathrine doing the stories comming out of dragomir mori has been really cool.
     
  6. Arkah EMPstrike

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    Speaking of which, last patch fixed the trials ;)
     
  7. oplek

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    I think the line that's crossed with me, is when the loot is exclusive to PVP zones, such as a few of the newer drops.

    I don't mind if it's easier to get, or PVE areas have a lower drop drate. I just see that as part of the risk-versus-reward spectrum.
     
  8. Arkah EMPstrike

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    @oplek could make it like, where farmable spots in pvp zones can have higher drop rates for people who capture it but normal drop rates for those not on the capturing team.

    The obsidian trials use tech that, even tho its a pvp zone, noone canattack players but CAN attack dummies until the battle starts
     
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  9. Brass Knuckles

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    One of the main differences I can see it’s easier for a pvper to pve than it is for someone pve to pvp. Some people are fearful or have other real deep seeded reasons why they don’t want to pvp no one has those for pve. What I really think the pvp crowd needs is a bg like arathi basin with real pvp reward system. Also I think group pvp events like a bg will pull more and more into it. Leave the pvp ransom for the hardcore pvpers what we need is more softer core pvp types and then convert them into hard core if they choose it. Pvp is a important element in the game obviously port wants to encourage it I think a soft core team element is the thing to do it. I don’t like exclusive drops in pvp only zones and I don’t mind pvping some, imagine those that refuse to pvp how they feel about it?

    Sorry Mac I love ya bro I just can’t read huge wall of text, about three words in my eyes starts to cross and my brain is to small to hold a huge amount of information And have a chance to repspond to it. I think I’m on track with the theme of your post though.

    Bloodbay needs more draws for the hardcore, I’m not sure what those are but bb is under utilized. Also we really need factions for the hard core players.

    (Apparently I’ve no problem typing huge text walls)
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
  10. Arkah EMPstrike

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    Know what’d be a great pvp-only reward? Obsidian potion of Shadows, reduced ransom upon being ransomed

    Or small % chance to not be ransomed on death. Make it cost so many skull coins then itll lessen the impacts of deaths for those who lose alot when farming pvp zones like grunvald or the fall
     
  11. Brass Knuckles

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    I liked when silver coins dropped in uo and you could buy pvp stuff including traps they could expand that for titles pvp skins etc.

    They would have to have some mechanic in place to prevent farming alts but ya fun.
     
  12. Spungwa

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    I think for me, i'm not a PvPer but played Eve that had non consensual PvP everywhere outside a station, no where was completely safe.

    My problem with PvP in this game is that if i'm PvEing where PvP is allowed, there is nothing I can do to mitigate that risk.
    In Eve, as long as I was not AFK, constantly checking that that no new player was in my local area.
    Then if I see someone in the local area I used the scanner so when they got close I knew which ship they where in.
    With that knowledge I decide if to fight or run. If that was a complete mismatch I run.

    In Eve PvP (outside the huge fleet fights that are completely different) is a game of cat and mouse, but if the mouse knows what they are doing they get to decide if the engagement not, not the cat. So the cat has to be very clever and look for either victims not paying attention or is a fair fight so the player is prepared to engage them. So if i saw the local area "spike" by 5 players, i'm running, i'm not taking a 5 V 1 fight. They can fight 1 v 1 with backup, but that inital 1 v 1 where they engage and stop me escaping while they wait for the backup, it is possible I kill that 1 ship and bug out before the backup arrives. So the PvPer has to take the risk that there tackler (as it is called in Eve) could be killed.

    Then in the engagement there is not a HUGE advantage to the person that attacks first, which exist in this game. So for example when you come out of stealth you can not target and start attacking for like 20 seconds but they can heal and use defensive stuff. The victim does get to attack or run in those 20 seconds.

    By putting the choice to engage in the victims hands, it forces PvPers to work for there kills.


    Regards
    Spung
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
  13. Dhanas

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    I agree and disagree in what the OP said, I don't think equality can solve the problem, if we have to talk about equality I would talk about Substantive equality: "a fundamental aspect of human right laws that is concerned with equitable outcomes and equal opportunities for disadvantaged and marginalized people and groups in society. Substantive equality recognizes that the law must take elements such as discrimination, marginalization, and unequal distribution into account in order to achieve equal results for basic human rights, opportunities, and access to goods and services.Substantive equality is primarily achieved by implementing special measures in order to assist or advance the lives of disadvantaged individuals". ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substantive_equality ).
    Talking about this what they have to do is leverage the handicap wich in this case is the risk, so if you take away the risk you would receive less reward than someone who risk.

    I don't think we have to divide PVP players from PVE player, every PVP player is also a PVE player, I need to craft gear for being competitive, this involves gathering resources and leveling crafting skill, I need to gain xp for raise my skills I use in PVP, so I need to go to xp like others PVEr do, and I need money for buy reagents, potion and stuff so I need to grind money like PVErs do. What I see weird is people who decided to don't join a playstyle cause it is risky complaining cause they don't have same things of someone who chosen a more risky playstyle.

    Games like WOW or ESO ( thempark games) have istanced BGs, Arenas and dedicated PVP gear, cause in a themepark game PVP is something separated from the rest, indeed you can level up your character just doing PVP and never doing PVE, or viceversa, Since this game should be a SANDBOX ( I am not sure realy, but this how it is advertised) PVP and PVE should cooperate in the world and aren't 2 separate things. A PVP player need to buy stuff from crafter and join the PVE crowd for gain xp, a Crafter needs a gatherer and PVP and PVE players as customers and need to buy resources from PVP and PVE players, a PVE players needs a crafter for buy his gear. Having a couple of rare stuffs exclusive to PVP zones ( that are not component for crafting and not blockers that prevent you to enjoy the gameplay) it's not the end of the world but it's how a sandbox should work.

    The core of my point to solve this problem is to stop to be jelous of what others have, risk has to be rewarded, a good reward are exclusive stuffs and not higher drop rate in PVP zone; 1st in this game there is friend mode, so everything that is not multiplayer or PVP become ridicolous, cause can be farmed over and over and lose its market value, 2nd having exclusive stuffs ( that are not incisive to the game play, like resources, mats could be) in PVP and mulitplayer istances only is something that rewards the risk.

    No one care of having titles for PVP, or atleast no one care of having just this, imagine if you go to a PVE zone and instead to receive xp and loot you would receive a title after spending tons of reagents, repair kit and essences.

    It feels realy weird to me that devs allowed people to have a PVP exclusive room in a private friend mode dungeon without neither having the risk to drop the components for having the mob spawn ( lich essences are droppable everywhere now, even in UT), good solutions to this in my opinion can be 2:
    1 Make blueprints droppable in PVP areas just usable in PVP dungeon
    2 Allow to use blueprints droppable in PVP areas in non PVP dungeon, but the components for make it work should be droppable just in PVP areas.

    Now if we give equality to everyone, and everyone can grind everything, craft everything, drop everything, the PLAYER DRIVEN ECONOMY ( one of the strong point of this game, wich drove me and many other players here) will be totaly fucked, so no I don't agree. Give exclusive stuffs to PVP zone as to multiplayer only zones ( or same zone but exclusive rewards if played in multiplayer), so we maybe enjoy again when we found an artifact instead to having another crap in my bags full of shits and items impossible to sell, cause everyone can acced easy to everything.
     
  14. that_shawn_guy

    that_shawn_guy Bug Hunter

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    I don't see an issue with the current system. If you're willing to take the risk, you can get a chance to get a drop that is valuable to some crafters. If you'd rather play it safe, you can still get the goods though other means.

    i'm not a PVPer and avoid PVP in all other games (for years). however, with the balance here, i have no issue going into PVP zones when i need those resources. i rarely run into other players and even more rarely do i get killed by a player. if i can't afford the ransom for my items, i don't take them into the area. a death from PVP is only slightly less meaningless than from PVE. with the removal of XP loss on death, death was made meaningless for all players. i believe this was done to quiet a few loud voices who feared the loss more than actually "suffering" from the loss.

    My play style is very fluid. Though, I do tend more towards crafting more than any other aspect. A year ago, I disliked how hard it was to gain crafting XP. I disliked that items would explode on masterwork/enchantment failure. At the time, I felt minor tweaks (more XP and salvage on failure, faster durability loss) would solve those pain points for me. In stead, we got way more XP and no more explosions. These “smoothing” changes were welcomed by many current players. Did it help the game overall?

    As for PVP, a dedicated player and spend a month in UT or other similar areas and be easily within range of being competitive with the top PVPers. With, effectively, no risk in dying from PVP, the only real risk from flagging is from griefers. It would seem this is exactly the environment that attracts griefers. We don’t seem to have a big enough PVP community to deal with the griefers directly. So, we tend to ban them. Did these choices help the game overall?

    I believe that we have pushed for far too much “smoothing” out of many of the systems in the game. Since the game was crowd funded and our current community funding level only allow for a small team, the developers have given in to our “demands” to try to keep some of us happy. After all, Port has to keep the lights on.


    Back to the question at hand. Can equality solve some of our conflicts?

    If equality, in this context, is based outcome, no. if it is based on opportunity, maybe. Equality of opportunity with inequality of outcome, historically speaking, seems to be the best option overall.

    Over the last year or so, the response for many criticisms has been to increase reward while reducing risk. I do not believe the suggestions in the original post changes this trend.


    We need risk of failure to advance in any endeavor.
     
  15. Tazar

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    Sadly, the friction is alive and well... and resulting in several top-community PVP'ers packing up to leave SOTA. Part of it is issues of spending so much in regs, repairs, etc. while PVP'ing that they do not make up in a PVP fight, forcing them to PVM... part of it is also having things of meaning to fight over. Recently with the introduction of the Lich Essence only in the Fall, there was great rejoicing and many good fights there (near constant) from what I hear... but once the essences started spawning all over, the battles died off as the reason for being there decreased (a special item of value could not be obtained much easier elsewhere). Castle Sieges is one item that might give more reason and locations to PVP, but I think Mac might be onto it as well with PVP-focused items (Arties or special ingredients to use in crafting with PVP abilities). Atos discussed the same ideas at the last SOTACon in Austin... hopefully he's done more than just think on it.
     
  16. Arkah EMPstrike

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    I think the move and staff changes and stuff caused him to push it back some. It was likely already gonna be delayed anyways but at the end of last summer his plan was to start on castle sieges the begining of this year.

    I heard somone say he mentioned it briefly in feburary’s livestreams so its still on his mind at least
     
  17. Jefe

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    So while I disagree with the increased risk argument as an incentive to boost things, perhaps what is needed to solve the problems of the people who want to PvP and not PvE is to turn off equipment wear when engaging in player versus player combat specifically. Attack a monster, get equipment wear, attack a player, no wear.
     
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  18. Tazar

    Tazar Bug Hunter

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    Solves the need for repair deeds and ancient essence... but not regs... and also doesn't have a magnet - something that draws them to a specific area with something to fight over. It would be a start though.
     
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  19. Brass Knuckles

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    I loved the idea of resillance and pvp power mw and enchants if crafted say in bloodbay. Pvp only specific items also could include those on artifacts dropping in pvp zones, this game could do a lot of stuff just for the pvp crowd if it wanted to.

    It could use that “silver coin” as a fuel as well.

    Ps I bought a cpl of those pvp blueprints I’ve no issue rewarding people who are willing to farm out pvp areas.
     
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  20. Arkah EMPstrike

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    If the special pvp zone drops were at pvp control points or sieges whatever, could have the scene be temporarily non-pvp after its captured then after a period of time become contested and open pvp again. The tech for it is already in-game.

    Having increased drops or something for the folks who captured it isnt tech yet as far as i know, but itd be fun

    Gotta be careful with pvp win = more pvp dmg and resistance because it would cause us to require rankings and rank segregation just to have entry level pvp, which wont work with a low population
     
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