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Combat Feedback (Chain Lightning and others)

Discussion in 'Release 37 Feedback Forum' started by Poor game design, Dec 17, 2016.

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  1. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    @Chris @DarkStarr

    1. Chain Lighting should be an AOE spell. The effects of chain lighting should not go beyond the area of effect...just like ALL of the other AOE spells (for good reason). Currently, the effects of CL go way beyond the range of 2 and continue to go as far as the link between various targets. Needs fixed yesterday.

    2. All AOE spells, because of their destructive nature, should have a chance to hit the caster. Fireball, Corpse Explosion, Chain Lightning, etc... This would add much needed challenge to using these spells.

    3. Focus Cost should be based on how much damage a spell does. Currently Chain Lightning does more damage than other spells yet costs less than they do in focus. It's laughable how much less focus it costs to cast something like Chain Lightning compared to say Death Field (which costs 36 focus per casting!).

    4. The stun effect of CL is OP. It's the number 2 biggest damage dealer and oh yeah it also stuns and there's no real way to break out of the stun without losing focus and time to do it. It's not that I don't think CL should stun, I just think it should be more fairly applied. Not just for CL but for all spells that stun or mesmerize the target. In a game about DPS, this is really a huge advantage in favor of the aggressor or the person that gets it off first. There needs to be more balance here so that you don't just spam stuns at everything knowing that eventually you'll get it and win.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2016
  2. Baratan

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    It would be nice if focus cost was calculated in a way that made logical sense. Like 1/10th focus per dps plus x for debuff.
     
  3. Drocis the Devious

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    Or at least in a way that when you looked at the spell you got the sense that it was comparable to what was going on.

    For example...

    Chain Lightning is not only a ranged high damage AOE spell that stuns! It's also very low in focus cost compared to other less effective AOE spells.

    I don't really understand why it's difficult to say "ok, that needs to be at least twice as much focus than it currently is." It takes me about 5 minutes to see how unbalanced it is. I don't understand why this seems to happen month over month.
     
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  4. Frederick Glasgow

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    @Baron Drocis Fondorlatos I am assuming (I know I shouldn't) that you are wanting this changed for the sake of PVP, but changing chain lightening will affect PVE greatly. I cannot deny that CL is somewhat OP at the moment, but can't we have one spell in PVE that is a good one, which it is?
    This has always been a issue in games that allow PVP and PVE to use the same spells and gear without any modifiers for one or the other. IMO, they should have certain spells modified if you are attacking another player. Not saying I am right here, just a suggestion. :)
     
  5. Drocis the Devious

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    It's my opinion that there are many good spells in PVE. CL is by far one of (if not the most) OP in the game though.

    While I agree that PVP mixed with PVE is difficult to balance, I would suggest that it's largely a problem with PVE. In PVE there's a very low bar for fairness as you're only impacting yourself and indirectly competing with other players collectively. I realize it doesn't do me any good to argue that point now as I can't change the last 3 years of development where we built a PVE game and then added PVP after the fact. But I can say with great confidence that if we make something balanced for PVP now it will not be hard to make it useful in PVE because PVE can be adjusted by tweaking mobs. We can't really adjust players.
     
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  6. Frederick Glasgow

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    I am so out of it today, I had not considered this point, you are right.
     
  7. Knightguy

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    I'd love to see the math they use to balance and set the costs of abilities! One of the main reasons people use CL vs anything else in PvE is performance. Fire is out the window when in groups cause it causes massive lag spikes. Air doesn't suffer from this. Also, Air is favored cause it has chance to stun, which helps keep people alive. For PvP people can get enough air skills to get resistance and attunement to help negate the stun and damage, though many do not. Instead of nerfing Air I'd suggest buffing fire and death and adding another higher level water damage. I'd also wait to see them fix the latency and lag caused by certain abilities to make them more favorable for group play.
     
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  8. Drocis the Devious

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    This a major problem. People don't understand what's happening.

    What you're suggesting would effectively nerf Air and any other school that's not Fire and Death. In this system if all we do is raise one side, we're effectively lowering the other side.

    Notice in the OP how I'm not saying "make CL do less damage!". That's because that's not the problem. The problem is many fold, but when it comes to focus CL is very cheap to cast in comparison to other less effective spells. That's really not debatable and that's why it needs changed.

    But let's assume for the sake of argument that all AOE spells cost exactly the same amount of focus. The real issue with CL is that it not only does tons of damage, it also stuns and is effective from massive amounts of range because it does what other spells can't do by design. That's the problem. That's why it's OP. It will always be OP until that part of the spell gets adjusted. There has to be more "skill" involved in using that spell.
     
  9. Knightguy

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    I just don't see it as that OP, but that's just me I guess. Fact that it costs to little is your observation, I'd love to see actual developer math before that call is made. Way I see it on the other topics you, for instance the first point you brought up, it is hitting a target and choosing a new target to chain too past the initial range. The fact that it goes beyond the initial range is fine for me, and would hope that other spells would get similar mechanics, maybe a fire catching and spreading for instance. Anyways after the changes to fire and death last round, I'm sure they'll further balance Air and other spells, and that will be that. I like how CL is unique atm, but if you want to limit it's lightning to a limited range past the initial cast that's your prerogative not mine. I'd campaign to change other spells to do similar, earthquake getting an aftershock round targets it hits perhaps of fire being able to spread if someone runs to close to a burning target, but that's just me.
     
  10. Drocis the Devious

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    You can see the "math" for focus in the spell descriptions.

    As for other spells getting similar treatment, I think from a PVP standpoint you'd understand once that happened how horrible of an idea that is. The reason CL is painful in PVP is because it's doing multiple things at the same time. If we apply that same logic to all the other spells then we'll all just be spamming AOE spells over and over again.

    I also like that CL is unique and works differently, I'm not trying to "nerf it" I'm trying to balance it. There's a difference between the two. Right now the other spells work fairly well, I'll spare you the detailed break down. But essentially CL breaks the mold by allowing the caster to do a lot of different things at the same time. There's no real counter to it, and oh yeah it's focus cheap. So sure people using it would like it, it's OP. That's not surprising. But if we want a balanced game we need to make the spells balanced with each other, and not OP all around.
     
  11. Toadster

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    Balancing in PVP is nerfing in PVE as mobs in general have better resists and HP than players. Balance player vs player resistances and stop killing the spells we use in other ways. I would say this is mainly just a I lost because of that spell please change it thread, but you do make some valid points. All of which would make the spell almost unusable ina PVE situation where the fight last longer than a few minutes. I would rather see them buff the PVP resistances than take away from spells.
     
  12. Drocis the Devious

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    I don't think it's supposed to be spammed over and over again in PVE.

    Once we have more combos, it's not going to make any sense from a PVE standpoint to just have one spell that you use over and over again. Without thinking about the balance issues in PVP at all, I don't really understand why anyone would want CL to be so completely dominate unless they were only thinking about their individual character and not the overall health of the game. If we're all using one spell or skill because that's the most efficient way to kill mobs, isn't that a sign that it's really broken?
     
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  13. Preachyr

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    If you are relying on one spell so much that tweaking it's focus cost or damage or stun length would cripple you in PvE... thats a pretty good indication that the spell needs looking at. It is NOT balanced if you are relying on this one spell so much that making it in line with other spells in the game would make it unusable..

    come on
     
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  14. Toadster

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    Well if you setup your deck to stack effectively I am limited to about 3-4 attack glyphs in my deck. Chain lightning is in one of them and surveys a purpose but, is far from OP even at 80 for that glyph. If you spam chain lightning your mana would last less than a minute and the dmg would not be enough to kill anything. The dmg is reduced from earthquake and has a shorter casting time. I believe it to be pretty balanced for that level of a spell. The stunn affect barely last a second on most mobs, even low level. Which just leads me to believe you have no air resistance what so ever and your just whining and crying because someone beat you in PVP.
     
  15. Burzmali

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    So, ideally, chain lightning becomes an air version of fireball, but with either a worthless friendly fire effect or one that eliminates it as a useful spell?
     
  16. Knightguy

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    People build their decks in different ways, some bloat them with excess or whatever their hearts desire, others focus on the same few abilities. This is nothing new.
     
  17. Preachyr

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    Are we playing the same game?

    If you spam any other spell at an equal level or even lower ones you will run out of focus even faster since CL has a lower focus cost than equivalent spells. CL does double the damage of fireball and more damage than earthquake plus it has a chance to stun and the stun range is almost unlimited since it jumps to max range from each target. The stun lasts 4 seconds at level 1 and goes up from there and works just as well on mobs as it does on players (same as mez).

    If you want to support the spell then fine but at least be real about it.

    I haven't encountered this personally in PvP yet, but it doesn't take a genius to look at the different spells and see that one stands out far above the rest.

    I would much rather see skills balanced out now rather than wait and have more content added to the game which is balanced around the current out of whack skills. Baron Drocis raises very good valid points about this spell and he is not the only one. This spell has been the topic of discussion for a couple releases now for all the same reasons.
     
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  18. Toadster

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    Balance is on thing nerfing everything to nothing is completely something else. I have never seen numbers on a Chain lightning even come close to what someone can put out in an earthquake when comparing same level glyphs and attunement in tree. And also what do you think the focus cost of chain lightning actually is at level 80, when it goes up as you raise? The only advantage it has is a real quick caste time and even at 100 it was still 4.? Seconds for the stun, and it never gives a full 4 seconds at 80 to mobs.
     
  19. Preachyr

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    @Toadster

    Problem you are having is that no one here is calling for it to be nerfed to nothing. It's been brought up over multiple releases now asking to balance it and bring it inline with other spells. I am not for nerfing anything into the ground but I am for balance.
     
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  20. Toadster

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    I am for balance also, but balance needs to be made based on PVE not on PVP. I think the stun, reagent cost, focus cost on chain lightning is very comparable to the only other skill in its level which is earthquake. By doing these suggestions it makes the spell almost worthless in PVE. They need to balance the spells for PVE then work on a PVP resistance modifier that can be adjusted to balance how that spell affects PVP. There can never be a balance that will be good for both as the Mobs will always have more than a single player.
     
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