Coming to Terms (R13)

Three things, perhaps more, threaten to keep us from happy discussions about PvP.

1) We cannot agree on the definition of PvP terms. We get so tied up in this that we can't even hear the other person's point. Or properly express our own.

2) We cannot respect PvP play styles we do not like. Everyone here has the right to engage in the play they enjoy. Griefing and cheating are not included in this statement.

3) We can't PvP or engage in conflictive RP without taking things personal. It is hard to separate game actions from real life and realize an evil player is most likely a decent person. (For me, it took raising a FPSer to adulthood to realize how true this is)

Discuss?

 

I believe much of this will be handled in later releases when guards get implemented and guilds can war each other. The role play guilds can war other role play guilds and not have to worry about outside intervention. Right now its just a mad max free for all world out there.

 

That may be true to a point but I don't think it represents a majority in this community. Though it does seem true of certain individuals to varying degree.

I think PvP tends to bring out people's aggressive and competitive tendencies also so likewise discussing it might do the same.

 

The terms might vary labeling for this new type of selective multiplayer also. Even the term PK is not really good for this because if you flag you consent to being flagged. Every one who flags themselves would be considered a player killer in all honesty. I would more like to use the terms defined like d&d. You have your good and evil at least. Griefing can possibly still be used because anyone can abuse the system and grief some one I guess.

 

First of all, thanks for taking the time to address these points.

Here are my general thoughts, in response to each:

1) Not sure where to begin on this one. Part of the challenge is how new the community is (esp. the with recent Steam influx) in comparison to other games. Part of the challenge is having such a unique combat system. It's forcing us to each draw our own comparisons, which can vary wildly. Even I was forced to coin my own term at one point. At the moment, I feel the best thing we can do would be to illustrate concepts we're stuggling with via screenshots (for those that don't know, the 'spoiler' trick is a great way to keep from crowding a post with screenies). Beyond that, I think we may need to give this problem more time.

2) On this point, I'd agree with Bowen. In general, I've noticed most of the hostilities being reserved for the forums, and even then, it's generally only a small group that gets silly with their competitiveness. In-game, most fighters I meet are either respectful, or pass on quickly without comment. That's better than most PvP situations I've been in.

3) Not being an active RPer (although I love to engage in it casually), I can't speak much to this, but that seems like it'll be more comfortable once it becomes more organized. Maybe it's just me, but I always enjoy PvP better when I have a friend with me; helps me to remember that it's not personal.

 

This has been my experience too, which makes me hopeful that we will end up with a fun PvP community. I hear about things people do or say, but so far my experience has been good.

 

Most mature players and experienced RPers I think know not to take things personally.. where that really gets sticky is when non-RPer meets RPer and the non-RPer leaves a bad impression.. (ie griefing). It's hard not to take things personally when you think the other person is intentionally making it personal.

Occasionally I've been known to make doubly sure by offering OOC assurances via a tell. Though usually the other person is on the ball.

 

We could. But we won't.
And you are conflating three different aspects into one. Differing definitions is one thing. Understanding and expressing viewpoints is a completely different thing.

Someone could "from above" come in and say "this is how SotA defines the following glossary" and then lay out definitions for common terms. But they won't. Since it is not really worth it.
Lots of people in these forums are listening and understanding other people's viewpoints. However since they disagree with those viewpoints that understanding is usually obfuscated by the underlaying disagreement.

A humanist and a fascist could understand eachothers viewpoints but any dialog between them might not be that productive.

While I agree with the basic general principle all of those are false statements since you state them as absolutes.
"We" can respect playstyles we don't like. Some of "us" do respect playstyles we don't personally like or enjoy. If you look in the kingdoms of old (UO) lots of PvP folks would respect their favorite peaceful crafter&trader even though their playstyle was completely different from their own.
Lots of PK hunters would respect some of the PKs and vice versa. There are lots of stories out there where after one or the other side won, they would banter, chat and head to town together for "drinks" forming friendships over the battlelines.

There are also lots of stories of people having one playing style back when they started gaming and then as they mature they switch style. Those people would definately know and understand and sometimes respect their old style even though they no longer enjoy it for themselves.

Me I would never do PK or griefing, but I do respect the effort and the skill it takes to be good at it. I can also see what they might get from it although I myself do not get the same kicks.

Again while I agree with the basic premise of that statement it is false since you state them as absolute.
Some of the "We" can easily seperate our persons from our avatars and do the same for other people. I rarely hold grudges in games. Yes some people are jerks but they get off on others getting riled up so I see no point in giving them what they want.
But I'd say that if you do evil for evil's sake then in that context you are not a decent person. Just like some of the most horrible people in history have been loving and caring people in other contexts while being utter and complete evil in others.

Would help if you stated a purpose of the topic. If it is just to state what we you think that we cannot resolve then it is moot.

 

I'm not sure I agree , I find it a simple matter myself. Either you have honour when you PvP or you don't. Dont attack AFK, at skill trainer, ect. If you dont fight with honour it dont make you a bad person, you simply play with a different set of rules.

Again I'm not what some would call a pker, I'm the pk hunter.. I personally respect the pkr, I even have friends amongst them.. I dont get mad at their play style I get revenge.. I have had one such friend kill me as i loaded into a scene.. was all good i waited until he was low in health from a different fight then as he was sitting their healing proceeded to kill him. I was honest and told him what it was for.

If you take RP or PVP personal.... perhaps its time to take up crafting?

 

Amen so true.

 

Bowen, I have been impressed by the PvP and RP communities here in SotA. And I too have preceded an RP'd evil act with an OOC PM. Always a good idea.

Keira, I plan to take up crafting. And PvE. I am learning how to be a healer. I want it all.

And Spoon, I spoke in absolutes for two reasons. So I wouldn't sound judgemental, and to see how people would react.

I suppose I wanted to feel out the community. I have been doing conflictive RP for as long as there has been the internet. I have seen the worst that it can be. However, I am hopeful that this game and community will be the game I play for the rest of my life. A safe haven and home.

Purpose of this topic? Ok, here goes. I am wondering if there is an interest in the PvP community coming together OOC in understanding and respect, similar to the way the community at large does here, at Avatar Circle and other places. Does the community wish to reach out and get to know each other and put some humanity behind the opponents in game?

 

I don't think this is the case at all. If anything, it's the inability to accept that PvP is set at one definition of PvP and not the one of the specific person has chosen.

PvPer know the different types of PvP.

The claim that griefing and cheating are not included is showing your hand. The definition of griefing is different to each of us, the same goes for cheating. I am willing to bet that your definition is a play style that others wish to be respected. Many accept this but you are showing that you do not.

This is true for some, definitely not all, even with forum postings. Many posts have been in detest and protest of a thread/post showing they are taking the comment from the singular perspective and not one piece of the whole. - "PvP is a haven for griefers" "What how dare you call me a griefer" No one was singled out and not one is required to be a griefer in that statement but someone will always demand justice for a self inflicted offence.

Your 3 points of discussion are rather all inclusive. A quick change of the word "We" to "some" or "I" changes the premise from an absolute to an observation.

 

hmm that is a good question.
Though I don't think it is completely possible I'm somewhat hopeful.
When it comes to human nature and cliques within groups within communities. Then there will always be extreme cliques in the groups who only want to hang with that clique and look with disdain on everyone else. So for those I think that is not plausible.
But where I'm very hopeful is that the dev team have clear set boundaries between the different groups so that the extremist cliques doesn't need to clash.
Then all of us together have the sandbox persistent world where we all affect and possibly interact with each other and our creations.

I do believe it will be and I do so because we have a set of features putting in boundaries where people will be allowed freedom.

Features like

Selective Multi player
I love this and already use it a lot switching back and forth.
I can go to single and craft and quest if I want some alone time and then get a whisper from somebody and if I feel like it switch to multi player and join up. It's such a feeling of freedom.

Protection of the Oracle + PvP scenes + duels
Again the wonderful freedom. If I am a thrill seeker I can be PvP all the time wherever I go, and the reverse if I don't enjoy PvP at all I can keep the protection of the Oracle. But that I can with the same char switch between the two by visiting the Oracle (or in the future join a party leader of the other kind) is brilliant. It means that I can have friends in every possible camp and enjoy their kind of style with them on their terms without having to compromise like in other games.
Then using the duel system I can even have a PvP tournament where spectators know they can watch safely if they wish.

Housing permissions
Add to that setting housing as Private Invite or Public in combo with the options above.
It is so gratifying. It means I can use my home as a community center and have lots of public events where everything goes and everyone is welcome, then one day have an event for invited only, or when needing to redesign the place I can set it to private and get left alone until finished.
So I can have a PvP brawl where no "innocents" can get mowed down in the mayhem. I can set up an RP event with a bunch of friends or guildies which no one but them can disturb, etc.

Player Owned Towns
Where communities can set up their place and get to set up some of their rule sets. Like those who want to live in a free for all environment can, but in the same world not that far away one can again have the safety of the oracle etc.

There is just so much freedom here that I hope that everyone else will enjoy it as much as I know I will.
Well either that or they will have to throw me out when they close the place.
At least if they get to add all the things that will make it continuously fun along the way.