Comparing SotA to Ultima VII

Conversations don't feel natural not only because of being able to ask things which make no sense in the context of the conversation but because you can ask the same things over and over again and get the same answers again. No one ever recognizes that you already asked about something. Also NPCs don't really react to the player. They don't know when you alread met them. The conversations feel as if we type keywords into the search bar of Google. We always get the same answers.
This is not a natural flow of a conversation. It feels as if talking to a robot which always has he same answers to the questions and who isn't aware of the player and everything going on.

 

To be fair... U7 NPCs aren't really different. You can use the same replies for most dialogue over and over and get the same response every time too. The difference being this system and its dialogue isn't finished yet.

Probably the most significant difference really is that U7 has very little in the way of generic NPCs that actually allow interaction.. which is one of the reasons why the NPCs you do interact with seem more polished. Where as SotA's NPC population is more generic NPCs rather than story specific.

They have said they intend to go back and flesh them out more but there the tech and design behind SotA somewhat requires NPCs to have access to a broader range of dialogue that otherwise wouldn't be possible if every single one were scripted.

 

I think it also sounds strange for Brigid to refer to herself as "the good Knight-Captain".

 

You couldn't ask about every topic over and over again in Ultima 7. Maybe some, like name or job. But there were also topics that vanished from the list after talking to an NPC about it.
Also if I recall correctly we got a different answer when we talked about a known topic for a second time. Of course not every time. And NPCs knew that we already talked to them. When talking again to someone we already talked to he greeted the hero in a different way.

Sure the conversation system in SotA is not finished. I just wanted to point it out so that hopefully this can be fixed.

 

Ultima VII had very limited npc's which had AI scripted to basically walk paths on rails depending on time of day. They had a conversation that responded to clickable keywords and either had topics go away or they say the same thing over again even if you asked it over again. The UI had a paperdoll almost exactly like sota does now. The interface for inventory worked exactly the same as if you would turn off list view inventory mode in sota right now. The world was relatively tiny by definition and there were slim to none in regards to generic supporting NPCs. Most of the magic (aside from the admittedly great and thoroughly complete writing) was from imagination due to the limited graphics instead of any actual secret sauce.

Dont get me wrong I do think the games a masterpiece, but lets be honest and call a spade a spade - most of that greatness is from nostalgia rather than anything the game possesses feature wise that shroud does not. It was a complete game made with simplified technology suitable for the time so they had to focus on what they could do with what they had available to them.

 

The approach to having limited NPCs actually is a very clever one. This way every NPC could get it's own background, personality etc. and did have a real place in the world. Also it was much easier to navigate the world and find the NPC we were searching for. Right now in SotA we have lots of filler NPCs that do nothing aside from walking certain paths in the game. They don't have a home, they don't have anything significant to say and they distract from finding the important NPCs (as right now they all look the same).
As for the AI: Do SotAs NPCs really have a better AI?
The tiny world: Yes. it was much smaller than SotAs but also very dense and atmospheric. There were no useless open spaces, no empty streets, no unneccessarly big cities with lots. The cities had personality and were charming as was the whole world.

Sure nostalgia plays a big part in looking back at Ultima 7 but - right now - SotA is lightyears away from reaching a game that was made with simplified technoloy. So if the technology of today is that much more advanced, couldn't we expect something that is Ultima 7 and even much more?

 

No SotA's NPC's dont have better AI...they are just unfinished. They too will have schedules very much akin to Ultima VII is what I am saying. And what I have said to the last 60 or so of these posts....

 

I agree with everything you say, but that doesn't make the SotA dialogue system any better or immersive in comparison to Ultima VII. The clickable keywords in Ultima VII meant that it was foolproof. The clickable keywords in SotA can screw up the whole conversation (such as in the screenshot I posted above https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...g-sota-to-ultima-vii.48672/page-3#post-539437).

 

No im not gonna say it excuses it. We have a clickable keyword system it just right now is seperated out in this chat window in the bottom corner. I've hoped itd be front and center eventually more akin to morrowind. SotA is still in development after all. But to say 'why isnt this here now in this game thats currently in development when i liked this game from years ago!' is kind of a straw man argument. No one's going to argue Ultima VII was good. Doesnt have anything to do though with the status of SotA. And im only mildly frustrated because this same statement/argument keeps coming up. I actually think SotA will be a great RPG. If anything i'm excited and pleased the single player story is going to be part of the online game... So many coop/online games leave it out and try to make it some other thing entirely.

 

The question is, can they manage to at least reach the quality of Ultima VII until release of Episode 1 at the end of this year? Because that is when the game will be rated and reviewed.
I still see so many things that need to be implemented, finished, rebuilt, balanced, optimized, completely build anew... I am highly sceptical that all of this can be done until release of Episode 1.

 

Don't tempt me

The issue here is that what "needs" to be implemented for Ep1 is highly subjective.

At best, what the devs can do is say that Ep1 is "feature complete" once they implement everything that they promised from the kickstarter... a good single-player experience worthy of an Ultima is in that bucket list. Good news is that they've already said that that's when they'll consider Ep1 "feature complete" and the game will be finally out of pre-alpha/beta.

One thing's for sure, though: this stuff won't make it before the multi-player server is "live".

 

A gentle reminder: the decision to respond is yours, so reflect on what motivates you to do it and don't try to squash people posting. How many clarifications did people make about the schedule and design so far in the PoT lot deed thread? Especially to people who post a lot already and should know? One who feels the need to continually respond to a topic is not much different than the one who feels the need to continually post it. No one is being malicious here.

 

Here is what Lum said in another post. I hope it answers some people's questions:

 

I dont believe anyone is being malicious, im just trying to frame things in a certain light @Vyrin. I'm interested in the offline portion of the game as much as the online portion, i tend to post to what i am passionate about when I can. I believe there are recommendations that can be made to improve the experience such as with the conversation system. But i also know other things are currently in process of being developed... So when i mention that people that often lament about the single player /rpg qualities think i'm outright arguing them.

Then people create new posts often lamenting the same posts and making the same complaints, and other people complaining in a like manner go and make the same sentiments again... So I often will post the same response to frame the discussion because if there is only one side - especially if that side tends to scale on the negative end - then it becomes an unhelpful discussion. Good example being in my response that you quoted where I even acquiesced that SotA's NPC's do not currently have better AI. I also stated it was a work in progress, but we've been told the final goals of both the AI and the conversation system for some time now. I go off of intentions until i'm given reason to doubt the achievement of those intentions which on this front so far I do not.

As for the statements about reaching the quality of Ultima VII I think inherently our own nostalgia, mine included, is probably too strong. It's unlikely that any game is going to set the bar because that bar is not necessarily a question of quality but rather nostalgia. It is not just the functions, features, graphics or writing of ultima vii that we remember but the feelings wrapped up and the all the memories associated with not just that game, but that time in our lives. Functionally i think that sota will be a superior game. I've not seen enough of the writing yet to state whether the story and writing will be but i have hope. As for immersion, I think it is a battle portalarium cannot win. The 2D graphics of the era caused a lot of things to be jury rigged and left up to the players imagination vs. seeing or experiencing something implicitly in the game. In a fully immersive 3d world we will see and interact with a lot but i think it will also tear away some of our ability to 'image' alongside the games happenings. It's harder to abstract in a modern game than it was back then (at least harder to do so and get away from it).

So I am not trying to squash any poster, I am trying to add to the conversation while sharing my thoughts and opinions on the matter and hoping the conversation does not regress to the dead horse we beat again and again. Theres a lot to be said, lots of concerns to be addressed and a lot of ideas to be fostered yet from the single player offline perspective.

 

I see that happen in every aspect of the game. We have moderators if there are issues. "An unhelpful discussion" is a judgment call that can be viewed differently by different people.

To be honest, it often feels that when people want to discuss single player the move is, "quick shut it down... can't they just wait?... it's unfinished!" I don't believe this is your approach, but I don't think the very small amount of posting about the solo player game in this forum is going to ever hurt anything. Cut people who've had to be patient for more than 2 years some slack!

 

+1

 

I was disappointed to read his response on it. It's likely exposing some key bad designs that they don't know how to fix or won't prioritize to fix. There are tons of issues like this, especially worse are the bugs where they mention some person, place, or (important) thing, and they go "huh?" when you ask about it.

 

I agree with this and - sorry if I have to say it and maybe I am wrong - I get the impression that there is some "hatred" and negativity against single player which shows in some reactions to the single player threads.
There are so many threads here asking the same PvP or housing or crafting questions over and over again. There are new threads opened regularly asking the same PVP, housing, crafting questions but I can't see any significant moderation because of this. It seems to be mostly in single player threads.
This gives the impression that there is some heavy and unfair lobbying going on against single player themes. That is just my impression.

 

This is true and very obvious.

The tactic is to try to convince you that your objective is futile hence worth abandoning.

 

Firstly I'm speaking very broadly and generically here and not about any one person.

What gets me is lately there seems to be a popular tactic of whenever someone doesn't agree with something to accuse them of trying to squash someone's post. Play the victim and whomever disagrees with something is the bad guy trying to oppress someone's point of view. Seen that kind of thing off and on now for a few months.

You post on a forum.. expect replies and expect some to not agree. You want to have a discussion.. you don't get to exclude people just because they don't agree. You want to have a discussion with just people who agree with you.. start a PM.

For my part I just wish some people could let go of their negativity for just a little bit and realize "it isn't finished" doesn't mean shut up and go away.. it means you don't need to worry so much cause it's going to get better. And I wish people who do have concerns would frame them in a way of trying to direct a feature rather than in such a way that sounds like "this is horrible and will never change, why can't it be more like ____" which many are guilty of over the past year.