Constructive Criticism of 6 month demo Combat Card System

Im starting this thread to encourage healthy discussion about the card system shown in the 6 month demo.

Please refrain from hijacking this thread with off topic discussions, and keep the conversation civil!

Im going to go ahead and re-post my original post in the 6 month thread, which got swallowed up pretty quickly.

 

First of all: I completely realize that this card system is a work in progress, and nowhere near a complete system.


That being said, what I've seen so far feels like an twitchy MMO combat system, with little room for tactical considerations. Here is a possibility of adding some strategy:



Some more clarity on what im showing here. This stems from my immediate reaction to the shown card system, which feels WAY to similar to existing MMOs.

First, the UI is a 5 second mockup. In its current state, it will take up too much screen real estate. Im fairly certain that a more elegant design can be devised.
The main idea behind this proposed system is the ability to see skills that will become available before they appear, which will add a lot of strategy to the combat, making it less reactive and twitchy. While it is true that this will encourage "skill burning", i believe that something can be worked out with skill costs to offset this issue.

 

1) It makes little difference which dps skill I use. Whether that's controlled by cards or cooldowns, I don't care. So this isn't the issue at all. It doesn't have any value to me to be confronted with more than about two single target dps options. If I need more, it should be something like 'hold shift for AoE' or 'press 2 to switch weapon / stance'. Don't waste UI real estate with multiple options that aren't really different.

2) What is the issue is having an actual choice. A choice that matters. Do I use cc/interrupt, dodge, block/parry/tank, fast damage, or big risky damage (e.g. a finisher)? These are vastly different intentions.

3) Control wise, I'll have one hand glued to my mouse and one hand on WASD. My mouse is targeting so I can use those buttons for skills on the target but I can't click anywhere else with the mouse or I lose my target. I also can't realistically hit anything on keyboard right of the 'g' key ('f' is better) because my hand is on WASD...I'm strafing, kiting, dodging all the time.

 

To be perfectly honest after watching that I am seriously concidering giving up on this game. It has EXACTLY the problems I predicted when it was first annouced that they were doing this

You can only watch the UI OR the action which is stupid and horible because it goes contary to his own principle of a unobtrusive interface

Further more because of this you have to remember what each of the icons are which is going to be a pain in the ass

and thats without even going into the issues of the "wheres my healing spell"

This is a horible system and makes the whole game a bigger waste of money than DNF was

 

Can you really make comments about a system that was disavowed in the demo? If it was stated that this is not the way it's going to work, this will just be the same comments already made. It could be a forum for updated ideas I guess.

I really don't think comments on the demo per se are fair, just the overall card system. The only thing I'm going to comment is that I'm going to keep waiting until they propose something about the way it will work beyond what has already been said.

 

I think it's important for people to present alternatives. I'm open to seeing some more ideas.

 

There is a viable and well play tested alternitive, its the traditional system. If there are reasons to vary this system then show the PROBLEMS and then show solutions

To quote spoony "you don't put bacon in a milkshake and then gift wrap the milkshake"

Inovation is great when its used to solve problems, "everyone else uses it" isn't a problem, there is a reason why everyone else uses a similar system, its because it WORKS, its fun, its intuitive

 

"It's fun" and "it's intuitive" are opinions. Neither case is true for me, personally. I'm not saying that just because I personally don't find most games fun that the gaming industry should change. But, it is why I don't play most games (any, if it has to be paid for.) It is specifically -because- it was stated that they would -not- be using the same system, that I pledged my money here. So, there are shades of opinion on each side. One mans trash is another mans treasure... And vice versa. Either way they go, people will be disappointed. Disappointed enough to leave.

 

I don't have any problem with the system as a work in progress. I think with it slowed down and with the ability to "order" the card it will be very usable. They also said something about tagging cards so they stay up longer or permanently. This will allow some ability to prep skills and spells are you approach the enemy.

What was should would be what I would expect this early on. The speed is probably intentional so they can see how their algorithm is working. Honestly they should have probably not shown the combat system, but it was probably hard to exclude it and still show off everything else. However, the freak outs over the system are why normally developers keep this process under wraps. Even with web site developments showing your early work usually just freaks out the clients.

 

I think the worst thing about the combat system is that they tried to show something about it. Better to have just cut to a black screen that says 'insert super awesome combat system here'.

 

I think the 'problem' they are trying to solve is the monotony of current hotbar systems. Is this a good showing? No. But I think the saying 'if it ain't broke...' doesn't apply. I think that current hotbar-style gameplay is boring and is in need of a revamp.

 

More and more people (especially backers) are checking the "I don't like this combat system" box. It's kind of hard to ignore. I hope Portalarium isn't too stubborn on the issue because the game looks awesome otherwise. The system they are working on is innovative, but ultimately not very popular.

 

I think that's a fair point and I'm sure that the devs have caught on to that (in spades).

I think it's important to keep telling them what you like and dislike, however I would say that the arguement against the card deck system is basically just this: It's random.

In fact, it's not random, it's just not completely in your control as a player as to what skills you have available when. Which is the ENTIRE point of the system, to make you a bit uncomfortable and make you THINK. The traditional combat of MMO's does not do this, which is why you can script and macro your way to success. So by default, what most people that dislike this system are arguing for is the ability to script and macro. Which by the way is the complete opposite of skill.

 

It's random.

No-one is arguing for the ability to script and macro. We argue for the ability to control our own characters.

 

You're arguing that by default because total control allows macroing and scripting. You can't get around that without some form of random mechanic.

 

Why they cant make a macro/script to chose the correct spell from "random deck"? Like set hotkey "1" if have fireball on list avaible, use it. I think thats even more harmfull whit this system since its even beter advantage against ppl who dont use it since they need to stare "deck". So in the end, whit your logic your just hurting yourself making more bad combat and still your fear is there.

Enyway aswell, i disagree whit you about the macro/script even if thinks would be more "traditional" mmo combat. My gaming experience in eny specialy new mmo, i have had none gain using macros/script in pvp, specialy in group pvp wich is much closer in my heart. Since its all about how your grp work together, how you react to your enemy and theyr setup, how you use your skills smartly to defend or atack. With the "randomness", i have much less control of my grp and my role in it, like in Daoc if you have played it, wich i find still the best grp pvp game. Sure, i dont have eny doubt that i could not make this work whit my grp since it would be same for everyone.. but it does not mean its a good system for group or solo pvp in my opinion. And tbh, i cant even understand why PvEr would want less free combat/magic system too.

My suggestion is to make it more free. You can use eny skill/spell as long you have right amount of skill/mana/endurance/stats for it. Have longer casting timer as well the timer to get it back on use and more use of something like mana/endu for stronger spells, so you need more smartly use and think before use them. Same it kills the point of "macro and scripts" since there is no endless use and the variety of skills/spells is much biger than in UO so its smarter yourself counter accordingly debending of need, as well its more about right timing for yourself or your grp and reading the enemy (aka understanding combat). Other option could be maybe add some groups for the diferent skills/spells, so if you hapen to have like firemage and watermage fully trained, and you use the highest skill of one of them, it would not let you use the same level group skill/spell instantly from another spell line. Tho this most likely useless, since they would use so much mana/stamina that your char could not use them in a row enyway or after that you would be for some time helpless.. but it could maybe add some tactical element by need to chose do you use like medium water healing or medium fireball.. so i chose to use the medium fireball and use lesser healing rather since it was smarter for that moment. So again script/macro would not understand what would be the best option, other than you. And the best would be, that all the spells/skills avaible but you would neeed to use them smarter since theyr use would impact on other spells/skills you have. Just an idea, what could be edited and added more varieties or combo impacts.

But its hard for me to say enything to make what i did see on the video better on combat, whitout being able to test it personaly when its more working and polished. But for now it looks clumsy, takes too much attention of the real fight, realy hard to counter enemy as well or notice what your enemy is trying to do in real time. Dont think personaly this is the combat to go, but will see how it turns for alpha before start pash it more. (i just hope we can make total turn for it, if its found baaaaaad.. and not force and try fix it to barely enjoyable.. and "good" for now)

Sory, most likely making none sense this late if ever, but waiting to see if someone have some real suggestions or ideas for the card system.

 

Quick sketch of my thoughts about UI placement. Note that I would prefer to be able to choose tile layouts from a pre-defined set (circle, delta, box) or be allowed to move individual hotkey tiles at will. Also note that they have been reduced in size (75%) and made 50% transparent so they don't completely block the view.

Just an initial thought that I figured I would toss out. Thanks to Bub for starting this thread, look forward to other ideas!

 

I was envisioning more of a double semi-circle... like this: (---)
And probably a bit more transparent still.

But I like that idea much better than the big long bar at the bottom that, after all, looks 'just like every other mmo', even if it functions differently.

 

How is that unobtrusive?

RG has said that one of his core goals was to make the UI unobtrusive, this is the oposite

 

My photoshop skills are very, very poor...otherwise I would have done the semi-circle thing