Craft System Brainstorm -- (Dev) Replied

Discussion in 'Crafting & Gathering' started by Bowen Bloodgood, Mar 13, 2013.

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  1. Bowen Bloodgood

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    I was going to do this offline and present something afterwards but I thought just doing it here might be a little more interesting. This is just me brainstorming and commenting on a potential craft system for the game and hoping to get a discussion going.. so let's see what we can come up with..

    Large (proximity) tool: workstations.. forge & anvil, lathe etc.
    Small tools: inventory

    Largely recipie based system.. basic idea is player must have all recipie components and then choose what recipie they want to make.

    Recipies should be skill based to make a standard item.

    Recipies should have no more than 1-6 components. 2-3 average? 6 is a bit high but can always be lowered.

    System should cover ALL crafting.. from swords, armors or foods etc..

    Players should be able to (optionally) customize a recipie.

    Example: Default recipie for a greatsword might include a sword blank, specific hilt and pomel or grip. The player could create their own recipie by choosing different materials for these components. Steel greatsword blank, wood handle.. etc..

    Recipie components determine properties. Ie cost, weight, effects..

    Possible properties on crafted item.

    Cost mutiplier
    Weight
    Range
    Damage
    Defense
    *Effect 1
    *Effect 2
    *Effect 3
    Number of uses: -1 unsable, 0 unlimited, 1+ limited uses
    Texture ID
    Mesh ID

    * Effects can be anything like spell effects, increased health (such as eating food). This should cover pretty much anything you could possibly want to "craft" from blacksmithing to cooking.

    Components would have their own properties that would modify the properties of the base recipie.

    For those who simply don't want a complex system, simply selecting a known recipie (be it a default or one you modified and saved yourself) keeps things pretty simple. All you need is the components and bam.. crafted item.

    This is not meant to address the issue or complex or simple process but rather suggest a system for development that can handle either.

    So let me throw some examples out.

    You've gone fishing or bought a fish at market. You want to cook at eat it. You need to be near a firepit (proximity tool). You activate the cooking interfact by using a tool let's say (the firepit in this case) and choose the fire roasted fish recipie.. your character cooks the fish. The fish has an effect value of raising your health by 10 points, a cost mutiplier of 0 and weighs x amount and has 1 use.

    You've got a bunch of steel ingots, and a piece of wood. You want to make a steel greatsword. You have all the tools so you activate the forge.. ok you need a sword blank? No problem. Sword blanks are made with ingots so you select a steel greatsword blank. Then the greatsword and bam.. you've a steel greatsword with a wood handle.

    The greatsword weights about 4 lbs, has unlimited uses, a cost mutiplier of 1.5, and a damage rating of X whatever.. with no effects.

    You need to make horseshoes? Sure we can do that too! Couple ingots and a horseshoe recipie. Cost mutiplier of 1, they weigh x amount, -1 usage (can't be used) no effects etc..

    You want a custom greatsword? Alright you open up a crafting interface and select the greatsword.. click a customize option and chose different materials for each component. Possibly even different styles for the blade & hilt etc.. and save it. It's not available to you to use at any time.

    In this scenario the components have a texture and mesh ID which is used on the final product. So if it's a mithril blade with a steel hilt.. what you'll see if a mithril texture for the blade and a steel one on the hilt etc. Oh but wait.. mithril has an effect associated with it.. so that is transfered to the final object.

    I think this allows for both simplicity in execution but possibly complex in design. Which is what would make us all happy wouldn't it?

    Now the actual process we see that will determine the workload and timing of crafting new items I think is a subject for a different discussion in another thread and I think RG and team already has a pretty good handle on that topic.. but RG himself has said that crafting isn't something they've nailed down yet and might even be months before making a decision.. so I'm hoping we can make that decision an easy one.

    I do think the one thing that can make or break what I'm thinking of here is the interface.. but I don't imagine that should be too much of a challenge.
     
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  2. RelExpo

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    The workstations are always a good classic, straight forward way of crafting, especially with a recipe system.

    I really do like the customization on a recipe though... kind of like using different ingots (Iron, Silver, Gold) and they give different properties to that new sword you just made (Iron - increased speed, Silver - increased damage to undead, Gold - increased luck effect, etc) for each part of the sword (although that might be TOO much atm but still something to build forward to.. most def!).

    There would be quite a diverse market of goods in the long run, it'd be great to have, especially with any bonuses Grandmaster Blacksmiths can add to it.
     
  3. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Since B was kind of enough to confirm item degradation for us.. I add Quality to the properties mentioned above. tsk.. knew I was forgetting something.

    The rules governing quality are up to the dev's of course. I'm sure it'll be pretty straight forward. Usuable items reduce in quality as they're used. I think food items should reduce in quality over time. A possible effect could be to reduce quality decay or halt it entirely in very rare cases.

    Which brings up item repair. I think this should obviously be skill based. You could pay an NPC do it but good luck finding a master NPC smith.

    A further thought on repair.. perhaps items can have a property that tracks number of repairs. When an item is first crafted it's quality is 100%. After 1 repair the max quality is perhaps 95%.. 2 repairs.. 93% and so on. (Actual numbers to be determined by play testing of course).
     
  4. Bayien

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    You actually covered a lot of stuff that I did not think too; and this is a great idea. Auxiliary customization would also be cool; such as emblems/cutouts; tassels/ribbons; runes for spells, ect.
     
  5. Urganite

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    <blockquote cite="Bowen">The greatsword weights about 4 lbs, has unlimited uses, a cost mutiplier of 1.5, and a damage rating of X whatever.. with no effects</blockquote>

    4 lb steel greatsword? Must be extremely hollow...or about 8 inches long. Thou dost realize that a bag of sugar weighs 4 lbs generally these days, dost thou not?

    All jesting aside, it should only make sense that crafting be more involved than it was in <abbr title="Ultima Online">UO</abbr>, so I think that the overall jist of your suggestions are rather good. There are lots of ways you can insert "game" into the item creation process, whether it's minigames or multiple steps in item creation. I just hope that the system that will be finalized is intricate enough to stay interesting without requiring just boatloads of time and resources to create finished pieces that people will want to actually buy.

    <abbr title="bulk order deed">BOD</abbr>'s were just about the most amusingly asinine thing in the world I had seen in an online game when I first encountered them. At least UO strove to do something with the ridiculous number of worthless items people had to make in order to grind up to <abbr title="grandmaster">GM</abbr> blacksmithing, every other game with crafting has you vendoring them one piece at a time to NPC's for coin of basically no value. Disenchanting was added later to give minimal value to otherwise valueless junk in <abbr title="World of Warcraft">WoW</abbr>, but even top-tier crafted items in that game were often dead and not worth gathering the materials to create them for a large part of the game's history.
     
  6. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Real life weapons do not weigh anywhere remotely near what their gaming couterparts weigh. It's a minor pet peave of mine. :) 4 lbs is plenty heavy even if SLIGHTLY shy..

    What I'm trying to do here is establish the framework of a system that can be both simple and complex while covering all the bases. I did however fail to address accessories which is an idea I really like.

    I envision a recipie sub-system that allows for the simplicity and speed but customization giving that intricate detail a lot of us would like to see.

    But ok.. accessories. An issue I think that needs addressing is just how many different types of accessories there should be. Each craftable item can only take a limited number of certain kinds of accessories. Going back to swords the only 2 I can think of are gems and tassles but you wouldn't necessarliy put a tassle on a great helm.. you could put a rediculously huge feather on a helm but wouldn't put that on a sword.

    So depending on the number and type of accessories available and the reasonable limitation on them it all gets very complicated pretty quickly. On the other hand, tassles, gems, ribbons and feathers are pretty much the only things I can think of right now. lol At least that would require a mesh.

    So what I would do is mount nodes on the meshes where accessories would attach to. Assign a value to them to indicate which accessory types can be mounted there. Probably limiting each node to one kind of accessory to keep it simple. This would still allow for plenty of variety.

    The trick at this point would be how to mount and remove accessories.. yes they should be removable. I mean.. if your sword breaks and you want your lucky tassle on your next sword.. you should be able to do that right?

    As for engraving. Whatever skill is used for such a thing, designs, runes, whatever to show up on objects should be a relatively simple matter as they could be applied with a texture overlay. Either a bump map or if it's magical runes it could be a luminosity map.. the point being it's entirely possible.
     
  7. Bowen Bloodgood

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    More on item customization. Most people think of weapons but I haven't heard much talk of armor customization. Armor has a lot of components to them. There is no piece of armor that is just a solid piece and just as I've suggested having multiple selectable components for weapons that can be combined and saved into a customized recipie, why not do the same for armor? How about furniture? Is there only one kind of fancy chair we can craft? Or can we select the legs, seat, back, whether or not it has arms etc separately and save that combonation as well?

    I'd love to be able to choose whether or not my armor has pauldrons or spalders (sp) or none at all. Do they match? Or can I choose different ones for each shoulder?

    If we could optionally choose each component at this level (and the key word here is optional which could be done by customizing the recipies you know and saving them for easy recall later on).. that would be nothing short of epic. And to my knowledge, another first for gaming.
     
  8. Bowen Bloodgood

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    After hearing an interview where RG suggests they're trying to keep the game's GUI to a minimum as much as possible I have a quick idea in regards to "saving" customized craft recipies.

    The essential premise is this.. you create the custom item (sword, armor, chair, whatever).. then mount it on a display as a 'prototype' which you can then select in order to copy it during the crafting process. The display would be a rack, platform, table or whatever is appropriate for that item. Perhaps simply the act of laying around the workshop would be sufficient.
     
  9. Bayien

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    In regards to your armor comment; I like the thought of being able to customize individual pieces of armor; so I could have one glove or one pauldron or one boot because why not. Or the idea of having different components/layers to armor. Ancient Samurai armor had studded leather pads; and quilted fabric underneath in order to twist up arrows and stop them from rending flesh, and it would be nice to see customization like that in game.

    And in terms of mis-matching armor and sets; you could use this on one pauldron; one glove, ect. (https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?topic=transmogrification)

    Or perhaps pauldrons; gloves; boots; ect, can drop in singular OR pairs; meaning sometimes you may only get one glove that hasn't been completely mutilated by your combat skills.
    In regards to this; it would be nice to see mobs actually drop the stuff they had, countless times I've walked up to a humanoid baddie wearing something that I liked; killed them, and been disappointed that it was not obtainable, even though it was clearly displayed having perfect health and not falling appart at the seams or fused to the soul of this wandering man whom I just brutally murdered.


    Of course you cant transmog a chair; but I do like the idea of being able to "Save" custom recipes; and perhaps keep them in a journal or something, so you can make a mach up of the item you want to craft, have the recipe, and go out and collect the materials, without having to remember what materials where needed.
    Or, if people are opposed to the game somewhat holding your hand and telling you what to do (like myself to some extent); a digital journey that YOU have to write in and YOU have to organize.
     
  10. tygron

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    Bowen, if this has been already covered i apologize. What about crafting time?

    How long , in real time, does it take to craft a great sword? Does your character have to stand at the workstation making those crafting gestures we all know to well?

    If you really had the crafting skill to make a very high grade sword, would it take you a couple of hours real time?

    Personally, I think if you willing to take the time, you should be able to craft almost epic weapons but it would take days or even weeks of real time to make them. I think you should have to be inactive at this time, unable venture off an explore...

    The real time craft system would be great for people who don't have a lot of time to play, and can spend there time learning crafts, getting materials, then activating a great recipe. There character can be crafting while they are at work. We know that you can only have one char. Per account so i don't think there will be any bots or things.
     
  11. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Crafting time is really a question of game balance and you have to take your average player into account and not just the hardcore crafter. Unfortunately that means the literally hours or longer in real time just standing there at the crafting station is wholely unreasonable.

    In fact, once you're standing at the craft station with everyting prepared then 2 minutes is probably unreasonable.

    I agree with you in premise, that those truly epic items should take a long time. So perhaps the way to accomplish this is in the preparation. Rare materials really could take a week or more to aquire in enough quantity to produce your masterpiece.

    I don't think crafting should be instantanous but it's not fun for most folks to simply stare at the screen while you're character is working either. Then there's the impact on economy. If crafting is too easy and too fast then the market will be flooded with cheap gear with no value.

    Ultimately the question of how long it really will take won't be completely resolved until mid-beta.
     
  12. tygron

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    Thank you for the reply bowmen
     
  13. theUnwise

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    And repetition as a mechanic you get faster, so why not the lower items take less time as you increase your level :)and i like the idea of items of epic proportion take awhile but i think you should be able to stop work on a recipe to go quest and than start it back up once home.
     
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  14. Illesac

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    I too like the idea of good weapons/extensive repairs taking an inordinate amount of time by today's standards. As others have stated it would be a good way to engage players who cannot afford to log in for hours everyday.
     
  15. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Not that's an interesting idea.. being able to stop and continue work on a piece later. Though I think that's getting into serious hardcore crafter range, being able to stop and come back is a compelling thought that could alleviate some of the "sit and stare" problem.

    You would end up having to store an 'unfinished' piece of work but that in itself seems kinda cool to me when I think about it. It never occured to me as the traditional craft system never takes longer for a few seconds.. and for good reason.
     
  16. blackdaze

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    As far as recipes go... I really hope they don't add them into the game, hah. Recipes/Patterns always seemed really awkward. You find an epic horseshoe recipe and read it, "Gather 40 pieces of steel, 20 emeralds, and a bunch of pixie dust, then pound metal until it has a U shape" ... hmmm don't know why I need 40 steel ingots to make something that's less than one or how I can an entire piece of armor with one but okay!...

    I like the idea that weapon/armor smiths can be trained how to make armor. After that the ingredients are the primary determining factor. Crafting is skill up based on how many items you make and lower chance to skill up when crafting with lower level ingredients or higher levels.

    An example would be that know how to make a leather jerkin but you managed to encounter a dragon and somehow survive w/ it being dead, you can skin the dragon and are able to craft a dragon hide jerkin. Another would be that you know how to make a silk robe and you kill a large spider of sorts and are able to harvest webs from it's large or it's silk glands from it. Using these you are able to make a spidersilk robe.

    If you're a low skill crafter and you're trying to use dragon hide to make an item, you're more likely to fail or have a worse quality item (still usable) or fail in making it and ruin the hide. High skill could likely succeed in making and even have a chance at making a really good quality. Also, it gives people who gather a lot of interesting items to sell at their shops.

    Personally, I like the idea of enchantments being different than crafting a whole item with enchantments included. You would need either things like relics or essences/remnants of magical animals. Someone (using a different skill altogether) could create an enchantment item that can be used on it.

    Also, these could be dropped from characters in the world just like weapons/armor. You will still have regular weapons/armor drop and for sale in towns, and regular enchantments drop and people could combine them. However, the best weapons/armor and best enchantments are for the most part by crafters. There would still be magical items in the game but make them rarer so it's kind of a real treat to find rather than expecting everything is magical in some form.

    That would be my idea for crafting... along w/ item decay I think it may add for a diverse marketplace that's pretty fun and not complex at all.
     
  17. Darkblade

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    Most of the crafting aspects have been covered to a great extent here.
    I would also like to suggest catastrophic failure during weapon modification.

    Some hate it, some love it.

    It allows career crafters to offer specialized contracts for weaponry and armor and at the same time prevents the flooding of high-end crafted items onto the server.
     
  18. Bowen Bloodgood

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    @blackdaze Let me clarify what I mean when I say "recipie". I DON'T mean you find or have to have a special recipie item. My thinking is that a 'recipie' would be character knowledge of how to craft a particular type of item. As you gain skills the basic 'recipies' are unlocked. Say at level 1 you can make simple blades, leathers etc. Level 2 you can make chain armors, larger blades yadda yadda we're all familiar with this concept.

    You want that dragon hide jerkin at this point? As you suggest you already know how to make the jerkin. Not a problem. It's the same 'recipie' but with a different material.

    If you think about it most crafting systems are "recipie" based. You put in the right specific combonents (the recipie) you get a finished product. By all means the components should make sense.

    I hope that's cleared up any confusion.

    @Darkblade Catastrophic failure. Yeah a lot of love-hate going on there. I can see it having a place in Sota.. as with everything else it's a question of balance. I really hated it for smelting in UO though. That didn't make any sense to me and bam.. an hour's work gone in an instant. I sure learned to break up my ore into smaller piles in a hurry.

    The one thing I must insist on if it were to go into the game is that it be more than just a random roll. Factors should include materials, character skills and the condition of the item. (An item in very poor condition would be much harder to repair or modify). It should feel natural, not like a dice roll.
     
  19. Bowen Bloodgood

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    In this recent interview (about 10 minutes in I think it was?) RG comments his leanings towards a sort of visual recipie style of crafting ala Minecraft.

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/25/garriott-talks-shroud-of-the-avatar-story-questing-and-mechani/

    For those who aren't familiar with Minecraft, the general idea is that you take ingredients and place them in a pattern that represents the final product. RG has mentioned this several times in different interviews so I think if it's at all possible than that is where we're going in terms of the interface.. a visual drag-n-drop into a virtual workspace.

    How I envision this possibility is something that would work well with what's already been discussed. Especially in terms of customizing.

    In the classic example of weapon for example.. let's call it an anvil or other appropriate workstation as the workspace. You place the blade, crossguard and handle plus any accessories into the workspace and arrange them visually to see what the final product should look like.

    This process would be free of material restrictions. Iron, steel, mithril, dragon bone.. whatever. If you can make a blade out of it, it's placeable etc. Assuming you have the skill to use that material of course.

    For armor perhaps an armor display can be the workspace. I think you get the idea.

    If we're going to drag-n-drop into a space like Minecraft I'd rather not do so within a 3x3 grid like Minecraft but I don't see any conflicts with this concept for a crafting interface with what has been discussed so far.

    I do see a challenge in designing a similiar interface for say.. cooking.. but for most crafting skills I think this would work quite well.
     
  20. Dorham Isycle

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    You should be able to craft a katana from 1 steel ingot, I'm not a metallurgist but I know you don't dig up steel, first many iron ore, heat that up &amp; get a little iron, not 2 ore = 1 ingot but 50ore. Then the game can get into using decimal. 2.3 ingots etc
     
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