Crafting Specialisation - Just Rerolls ?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Elrond, Jul 11, 2019.

  1. Elrond

    Elrond Avatar

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    After listening to Bzus going on and on about components and crafting deco in his last appearance...im not very hopefull crafting will become more appealing in the future . It seems they decided to a compromise ( between them ) that is suppose to make both sides happy ... specialisation will give us rerrolls ..... and we get to pay gold to do it .

    Seems like all the problems we pointed out with crafting over the years are non existent and even if Chris acknowledges that these issues exist ..i think he lacks the manpower to do something about em ...theres always something else taking priority over crafting .

    Specialisation was supposed to be something ... special ... but would have been too much work i guess . Im a bit dissapointed because i can see the potential ... for those who do not craft imagine if they added specialisation for combat blades and for 20 mil xp youd gain 50 focus ... for 250 mil xp youd get 50,3 focus .

    For me as a crafter rerolls do absolutely nothing ... but at least we will pay gold to do a reroll ( cant wait to see what costs those add up to making gear ).

    In case anyone from staff is interested ..a few pointers on what crafting specialisation should mean

    - A crafting specialisation should affect all masterworks and enchants ..higher level more power ( just as combat spec affects all skills in that tree making them more powerfull)
    - A crafting specialisation should affect the durability of items created ( Higher spec higher durab.)
    - A crafting specialisation should affect salvaging skill ( higher chance to extract components , higher chance to extract more then 1 components )
    - A crafting specialisation should increase the success chance to mw/enchant an item

    Rerolls should not be what specialisation is about ..they can be a conduit to adding more mw/ench to the pool .

    More issues that need to be fixed with crafting

    - Leveling progression is nonexistent - 250 mil xp in enchanting to gain 0.3 strength its ridiculous.
    - Balance the 1 hand vs 2 hand weapons ( start with the durability costs to enchant/mw a 2h they are too high making it impossible to get stats as good as a 1h weapon)
    - Balance chain vs plate
    - Add enchants /masterworks for - taming , gathering , allow us to enchant /mw tools , add new enchants for moon , sun trees ..add enchants /mw for fishing , add craftable chaos wands /staff , .... with the reroll system and an increased list of what to pick its douable.
    - Allow Major int for cloaks ( 25 int rings are dropping ingame while on cloaks 6 more int would be too OP ??)
    - Add more tiers to refining ingots ( same system like artifacts ) ..higher tier ..better stats.
    - Revisit the durability costs for enchants ..40 durability to place an enchant is really bad ...
    - Enchants power should scale with crafter level ( if im lvl 100 and enchant a weapon with life drain is 1-10 points at level 150 is 1-10 points ..alot of enchants that need fixing) .
    -Add more power to crafted gear to bring them on par with current artifacts ( or better then current artifacts )

    Im sure crafting decos are important for the game ...but they wont make our current problems go away ...
     
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  2. ldykllr

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    Paying gold on top of the experience required to spec? No thank you
     
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  3. Arlin

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    Also, almost every gold sink in the game rides on the back of crafters. Even setting aside how lazy and stupid this is, we really, really, really do not need another one.
     
  4. Cora Cuz'avich

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    To balance this, every swing of a weapon in combat should cost 10gp.
     
  5. Ataniiq

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    Master Elrond speaks truth
     
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  6. Bow Vale

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    While it is important that time/xp invested in a skill brings better rewards for the crafter it is also important that early adopters of the game cannot always make the best equipment else any new players/crafters to the game can never hope to compete, meaning in reality no new players/crafters as who would want to compete when they have no chance against the early players.

    I had hoped specialisation would be the answer to this problem. Each player would have the choice to specialise, making their chosen specialisation crafting's much more powerful than a non specialised player in that area. This would have allowed new players to compete in a particular area of crafting, especially with diminishing returns even in the specialisation field as this is the leveller that is needed in a non caps game to give new players hope.

    Pers0nally id make the specialisation field very powerful and narrow in a particular area of a field, ie: Bows within carpentry, shields within blacksmithing, lots nice powerful enchants etc but still have diminishing returns as they are needed.
     
  7. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    What I am still missing is that somebody points me to a better crafting system.
    By now I know from pretty much all of you what you want and what you don't want.
    But nobody is telling me how. And how to balance this. Oplek didn't even deign to answer my question Oo
    Do we really want a WoW style crafting system where every high end item is worthless in a couple of month because every freshman can buy it for 10gp because the market is flooded?
     
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  8. Spungwa

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    You can't really propose an exact how without knowing the exact code and implementation of the current. Welcome to the difference between a green field project and continuous improvement. Rewriting everything from scratch is not an economical reality. So with out knowing the constraints that the current implementation imposes on future improvement you can't.

    So can only say what, port has to look at that and see if it can designed and implemented within the constraints of current.


    Regards
    Spung
     
  9. Spungwa

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    Oh and as for better crafting systems from games I have played.

    Eve Online
    Starwars galaxies

    Archage was not bad if you removed the pay to win aspects. But probably mo better than we have here.


    Regards
    Spung
     
  10. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    That's either a misunderstanding or nonsense. I will go with the first. I don't want to know how ppl would program it. I wouldn't understand it anyway. I want to know what kind of replacement system people would like to see and if it's only a "I want the system from Skyrim but with more skilltrees!". I would prefer more details than that of course but you get my point.
    And I want to know why people think their idea of a replacement wouldn't go down in flames in a couple of weeks. Because from all the I want/I don't want posts here I can only come up with Systems that would go down in flames in DAYS.
     
  11. Nick

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    Just rerolls sounds lame.

    I'd be happy if I am allowed to masterwork iron sword + 100 elven essence + 5 silver ingot = iron sword of elven slayer. (+x damage to elf mob) (or various effects depend on RNG during masterwork :p confusion/damage/aggro)
    At least that's something new and not too difficult to implement.
     
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  12. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    Btw as far as I know "just re-rolls" is a wrong information.
    If I got that right the re-rolls change the RNG itself as well.
     
  13. that_shawn_guy

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    I don't think we need to add complexity. The "re-roll" seems too much like removing "destruction on failure". The are both attempts to solve the underlying issue of loss of materials (gold) and time. I think they could solve the underlying issues in a much simpler fashion.

    1) Bring back destruction on failure
    2) Return at least 80% of original materials on failure (excluding fuels) + a small chance for gold/silver scrap
    3) Every 5 levels of masterwork/enchantment skill above 100 unlocks more options
    4) Specialization reduces the chance of failure and increases the chance of returning 100% materials (excluding fuels)

    I also think there should be some consideration to return bonus material when scraping items you crafted. This would make retrying easier.

    I think this solves the real problem (pain of loss) and is simple enough to explain (and justify) to a new player. It also opens up the possibility of getting exactly what the crafter wants with the major cost being time instead of materials. Of course, that assumes you keep going on an item until it explodes and start from scratch. Personally, I'm more excited about the increased possibility of not getting the exact specs that I wanted but still ending up with something good enough to be profitable.

    Since we're talking about crafting, I have to add my standard "make durability meaningful" chant as well. From an economics standpoint, there is little reason to go through all this trouble if most players never have to replace their high end gear. If the COTO sink of repairs is really important, front load it in crafting process. What crafting wouldn't spend 100 COTOs to add back some durability to their custom item before selling it?
     
  14. Fenrus MacRath

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    This is a great Idea. I have voiced the same thing and seen countless others say so as well. Honestly , I think it is the least painful way to fix this entire problem. I would even be OK with smaller % returns and no silver /gold scrap(they seem allergic to this coming in the game for some reason) . If I could be given a very good chance to recover any of the ACTUAL items used in creation, I would be psyched. It would definitely lessen the sting of the broken RNG system.
     
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  15. Arlin

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    FFXIV also has a great crafting system.
     
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  16. Arlin

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    Almost every thread on the forums about crafting has people explaining how they think the system can be improved. If you haven't seen the suggestions then it's no one's fault but your own.
     
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  17. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    Nah. Not so much. But actually I don't care enough to start a fight with you. I don't think the crafting system is as bad as some of you like to pretend.
    If you want it changed and you want other peoples support you better come up with more stuff like: i wan/I don't want.
    If not *shrugs* that's up to you.
     
  18. kaeshiva

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    The exact details of "how it works" or "how it should work" has been done and-redone again and again.
    More important than "how it works" is that it fulfills certain things:

    - It should reward dedication, time investment to the skill instead of blind luck. (Levelling up should matter).
    - It should be economical (ie, final product should sell for at least the cost of components, ideally more to account for labor time / skill factor)
    - It needs a demand/consumption mechanic for output goods in order to maintain marketability
    - It should be sustainable - level crafting by crafting, without needing to finance it through adventuring for gold sink mitigation and recipe acquisition. Learn new recipes by crafting instead of playing the slot machine grab bag bs.

    Our current system fails all three of these points spectacularly.

    My personal additions would be that crafters should have more (if not total) control over the output through decision-making in the process instead of the slot machine. Plenty of games do this and have thriving economies, so its been proven viable by precedent. I'd also prefer to see the hours and hours of tedium mitigated - the "refining skills" was a nudge in the right direction, but the reality is that even at absurd levels of xp investment the speed benefit given by the skill is less noticeable than just crafting in a basement. The amount of refining necessary for even a single piece of gear is excessive. I was spending over 30 hours a week JUST REFINING, until I made an alt account to handle it. This should just not be necessary.
     
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  19. Arlin

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    Then don't comment. Keep this childish "Look at how much I don't care" nonsense to yourself.
     
  20. Scoffer

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    re-rolling masterworks and enchants seems to me like its just putting a band aid on a severed arm.

    At the moment I might have 3 choices out of 15 options, so 1 in 5 chance of getting what I actually want. Re-rolling will give me 2 in 5 chances. Woop awesome! Until they expand the pool up to 30 options and make it pointless. Then of course you have to compete with trying to beat these odds 6 times (3/3 MW/Enchants)
    Charging gold for that re-roll? I could just use that gold to buy more resources instead and have two goes at getting something. I suppose it might be slightly cheaper having a re-roll but ultimately it doesn't fix anything.


    That's something I hear quite often which I don't fully agree with. New players coming in can compete in crafting due to diminishing returns. I'm essentially at a soft cap now with my blacksmithing and there is very little point in leveling it anymore for me. To give you an example of this take the level of blacksmithing, the xp to get to that level and the exceptional chance that level / xp gives you:

    Exceptional chance 28% gained at level 112 for 3,805,106 xp
    Exceptional chance 29% gained at level 128 for 17,484,366 xp
    Exceptional chance 30% gained at level 145 for 88,374,208 xp

    I'm actually at the 145 level and the 30% exceptional chance. For me to get to the lofty heights of 31% chance I would need an estimated 491,353,291 xp (if the formula holds correct I would need level 163 for the extra 1%). Keep in mind there is no Upper Tears for crafting xp.
    How much difference does that 2% in exceptional chance make in terms of competing for the 85 million xp invested?
    This rings true across all of crafting with the diminishing returns and newer players can become competing crafters of marginally lower skill for very little investment.
     
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