Death

permadeath is not something that you can just scale up and down as you like. there needs to be some prestige or acknowledgement for the players that choose permadeath as their way of life. The reality is, permadeath will make the game so much harder that people without permadeath on a scalable slider idea would have a much greater advantage, eventually this will stop everyone using permadeath for this reason. Permadeath only works if other people play permadeath too.. it's not just a personal preference. So many people don't understand this...

 

@Nietzsche: Sure, tie in some achievements to show permadeath if that's what you're asking for.

Permadeath doesn't even have to be associated with difficulty. It could simply be a game mode option that says if you die, you die. You fight the same battles, the same MOBs, the same quests, etc, all with the same difficulty as others. It's just simply if you die, that's it, no rez. There doesn't have to be any greater reward for players who play in this mode than those who don't, except for an achievement title, perhaps.

If folks want to crank up the difficulty for this game mode, sure, by all means.

If folks want added reward and achievement for same difficulty permadeath mode, sure. Likewise even higher if they want greater difficulty permadeath mode. And by "mode", I simply mean whatever activity you're doing, be it in an optional quest, or permadeath zone, dungeon level, etc, whatever.

What do YOU want out of permadeath mode? Prestige? Fame? Phat Loot? Personal Satisfaction?

For me, personal satisfaction is enough. Phat loot helps, and I have zero interest in prestige or fame. An achievement title would be ok, just so I know it's been done for my character, as I wouldn't care if others saw the title or not.

 

Anyone who wants permadeath can have permadeath. If you die, delete your character and start over. There need be so game mechanism to do that for you.

I suspect that most people who want permadeath want it for other players, and think that they are too good have it happen to them as often as they will make it happen to others.

 

Permadeath is an interesting option, but I think it would be difficult to balance a game that has permadeath. Without a good balance people would stop playing. Inheritance is an option, but would still make some people angry. Perhaps a combination of penalties could occur, and maybe options.

- Require that on death people have to travel to a temple for resurrection which would pull their body to them (this would be the opposite of WoW, but I think would stop the habit of people running back to their corpses and resurrecting as quickly as possible to join the group again and fight against whatever major boss they're fighting, creating these odd death trains.
- There could be temporary penalties from death, or penalties that get worse for each death in rapid succession.
- Go with a virtual level loss, where you lose your abilities for your current level for a few hours or more (since some people seem to be very against experience loss, although I'm not opposed to that). Maybe if you die enough before you regain your full strength, and your "virtual" level loss exceeds your actual level, you achieve permadeath (gratz!) or get sent to purgatory.

 

@Nietzsche: ?permadeath is not something that you can just scale up and down as you like. there needs to be some prestige or acknowledgement for the players that choose permadeath as their way of life.?

Why not? permadeath in my opinion should just an on\off switch on a character options page, with a long timer to turn off, like 24hours.

On = You die you die, no rez.
Off = Normal death penalty

My guess is that you and many other permadeath fans would not be happy with the following ?prestige? or ?acknowledgement? for setting your permadeath setting ?on?

-Upon death NPC?s in your home town or maybe the closest to your death recover your body and have a funeral for you. You receive an in game tomb stone, visible in OPO mode.
or maybe...
-If you play with this option on for a certain amount of time with the same character (say 50 hours) your receive the achievement ?I play for keeps?, 100 hours ?Hard to Kill?, 200 hours ?immortal? (does nothing)

There you go prestige and acknowledgement, let me guess ?Not Fair!?

I just can?t understand this ?I play hardcore, I deserve recognition (read: advantages), all you carebears have it easier and will advance faster than me, and in time no one will play the way I play, it?s not fair? argument that is going through every thread on the following topics: Permadeath, Full loot, Open PVP and Stealing.

This is about choice and it seems like on all of these topics people are upset that they can?t make the choice they like for others..

It just doesn?t make sense, all of these things should just be selectable options on a character options page and then when you play you are matched with people who want to play the same way you want to.

RG should be marketing the entire game around this concept ?Play the way you want to play, with people who want to play the same way as you, in one world?

We can all have everything we want, in one game world using the ?PVP slider?, player selectable options and some type of player match making questionnaire.

Made a post about it that I am looking for critical feedback on (shameless plug #3) please tell me why it sucks and would never work, so I can abandon this idea if it has no merit, and stop polluting the forums.
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?topic=ideas-for-the-opo-play-mode-filter-system-active-matchmaker

 

Ahh Death, What a topic

I am just going to start by saying that I would classify myself as being a borderline "realism" purist. I for one would like to see food, drink and sleep all play a role in the game. I think that systems could be added, to how shall I say "remind" you that you are in fact hungry and you have not eaten anything in a few days.

I do not however think that you can take the same approach to Death in a multiplayer RPG.


Most games I have played where you have permadeath, there are various ways to circumvent that challenge.

Typically the most common way, is that you grind out exp and loot from things that are more or less trivial. This tends to work very well in loot driven games because player strength often increases drastically with each upgrade you find or level you gain. (Many ARPGs are like this)

Many other games that have permadeath are intended to be played over a relatively short duration. These play times tend to be short enough where a death is more like an inconvenience that you learn from.
(Many Roguelikes work this way, as do survival type games like DayZ)


I really do not think that permadeath can work in a game with a flatter strength curve that is intended for long term play, at least not without trivializing its difficulty.

I am sure there is a niche group of players out there that really want that type of game, but I think that it would be doomed to fail.

 

I would like to add though, that I feel that most games today (MMOs in particular) do not offer enough of a death penalty.

You are often slapped on the wrist with a trivial repair bill (that you almost never notice) and/or a very short respawn/run back (that is usually an inconvenience of no more than 3 minutes)

Other games add debuffs to the character, as a penalty for skipping a corpse run. WoW does this, and so did DAoC if I remember correctly.

SWtoR is way too forgiving in my opinion for a single death, as a medical probe can just resurrect you on the spot (skipping even the standard corpse run) It kinda fits with the setting though, as most Star Wars RPGs tend to give the "Heros" script immunity.



Now, what I would like to see for SotA,

First of all, a corpse run as a ghost. I think that would tie in well with UO "OOoooOoo"

Then when you get to your body, I would like to see a heavy durability penalty (something that you notice)

Follow that up with a nasty debuff (Maybe different ones based on how you died?) that can be removed by resting in a Home or an Inn, Or by some type high level player based clerical magic. (that has a non-trivial reagent cost)
Maybe resting in a camp could lower the effects of the debuff to the point that you are not completely worthless?

Anyways, thats what I am thinking.
It will be interesting to see if LB develops his "Dante's Inferno" idea more.

 

@Owain Indeed so, the UO death form was not only revolutionary but both immensely fun and frustrating to deal with your non-corporeal state, especially when watching a PK rifle through your belongings (in which case good luck with my 200 split stacked black pearls just to make looting me extra fun)

@Jean-J Nimble A funny story that I like to tell about one of my many thousands of deaths in UO (and the perp is probably among us lol) was as follows:

One sunny morning, I decided to take a stroll (being a noob that meant with my trusty dagger and not much else) between the fair Trinsic, and good old Britain. On this fateful journey I met the most horrible of advesaries... was it a troll ye ask? an ettin? Surely not a Dragon!? nay, twas a dining room table, four chairs, two candelabra, plates and a small red chest in its center.

But Darg I hear you cry, how in the stygian abyys could a Dining table even with cutlery be more dangerous than a Mighty Draagon... Well, the cookies that were on the table were especially delicious and inviting, so I helped meself. The ale was mouthwateringly cool to the throat so down it went, but it was my greed that got me. Red box... what's in the box I thought. A person appears next to me in what could only be described as Nystul's favorite grey nightie saying "oOoOoOoOOO!" and with the shock I knocked the box open. BIG red letters were conjured above my very head * You are in extreme pain, and require immediate aid! *

Next thing I know, everything has lost its colour, someone's given me one of Nystul's nighties too, lovely shade of grey it was. and I'm looking down at my own twitching corpse on the floor. Seven poor souls are standing next to me, all in grey nighties and one says "Told ye not to open it ye fool!"

We all watch on morbidly as a person appears out of nowhere, proceeds to loot my still twitching and warm corpse, and then chops it up into small peices, placing the parts into the box and locking it again. The table is then moved over the top of the blood splatter as the person says "MUUHARHARHAHRHAR" before sharply vanishing again.

All true, and this is why the original UO death system, with chop-upable corpses was not only a massivly abundant source of story, but was really morbidly funny too. At last check I still had several of my own heads on someones front porch locked down in fel

Darg.

 

I don't think it makes much sense for your equipment to degrade when you die. I mean, it should be damaged in the fight that killed you, or when the giant boulder falls on you, but not because your character loses life. This also throws a wrench in the full loot scenario, of which I am personally a supporter. I understand the need for a meaningful and inconvenient consequence, but it should be in-character too. Perhaps we could brainstorm some penalties that could work? A setback in advancement of level seems best to me, but depending on how this game is organized that could be difficult - I don't think players should lose skill points.

My problem with the damage to eq on death is that it marches us one step further toward a gold-based game. All you've accomplished is making someone go grind for gold somewhere to get their eq back to the condition they need it in. So IMHO it would pull players out of roleplay scenarios unless managed very very well.

 

@rild I dont think eq penalty on death would necessarily lead to more gold grinding. One general goal stated of eq repair is to enhance practical use of crafting skills and my impression is that there will be many ways to pay for repairs other than simple coin.

That said I agree that eq penalty on death doesn't make much sense and doesn't really add anything valuable. Like you said, eq durability should only be affected by use. I would rather see something like difficulty or cost to res or the danger of perma-death under certain circumstances.

@Retro I see what you mean about making everything a player option that feeds into the calculation of who shows up around you in OPO. I feel like it generally dilutes the cohesion of the game but I can't think of a specific, solid reason that it wouldn't work/shouldn't be. I'll keep thinking on it and respond at your thread:

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?topic=ideas-for-the-opo-play-mode-filter-system-active-matchmaker