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Dialogue system and quests are bad - sorry :(

Discussion in 'Release 28 Feedback Forum' started by Lord_Darkmoon, Apr 8, 2016.

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  1. Lord_Darkmoon

    Lord_Darkmoon Avatar

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    Sorry if I have to be the party-pooper again but I tried to follow the love quests and I am really disappointed.

    First a question: Are the quests in the love quest-series "final" except for tweaking and polishing? I mean are those the quests that basically (from what we have to do) will be in the finished game?

    Bring letter to person A, bring letter to person B, look for person C, get password from person D, talk to person E and find person F... Maybe the game should be renamed to Shroud of the Errandboy...

    I was hoping for really interesting, complex quests full of twists and secrets... SotA may be an old-school game but this doesn't mean that there have to be quests from the beginning of the age of CRPGs. Quest can be so interesting and exciting as other games show... I don't know why the quests in SotA have to be so simple and straightforward instead of complex and exciting...

    And I hope that the balancing is reworked. Having to go to a 5-skulls area in one of the first quests (Necropolis) just screams "grinding" and should definitely be reworked.

    And the dialogue system... I am not talking about the presention in a chat window this time. What bothers me is that no matter how often I talk to someone I can always ask the same questions and get the same answers. By this I mean that I can ask about undead every time I meet the same person and I always get the same answer. I can ask about the name of the NPC a hundred times and get the same answer! This is not a dialogue this is more like scanning for data by typing in search-words. In the other Ultimas you couldn't ask about a topic again after the NPC already talked about it.
    But in SotA I can pretend to meet the person for the first time - every time I meet this person!

    Also the chat bubbles don't correspond to me having already met the person. I was talking to the Mother of Peace and when I said goodbye and walked around a bit, a chat bubble above her head said something like "Oh, another outlander?" As if I hadn't met her before! But I just talked to the woman!!

    Dialogues should be organic. If I ask about a topic and ask about it again it should be recognized. I should be reconized by the NPCs when I have already met them. The dialogues should flow naturally and not feel as if I ask Google a question and get some text as an answer...

    Sorry for sounding so negative but that really disappointed me heavily... :(
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2016
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  2. Fister Magee

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    I feel you.. and cringe at doing that quest every wipe.. something is always broken, or wonky.. I do report the bugs, but I'm not going to rewrite their story sequences. These need to be more interesting as well.

    All I can hope for is that the Q2 notes I think mentioned that this quest would finally be 'completed' in an upcoming release.. but in its current state, I cannot see it being a compelling quest.
     
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  3. GreyMouser Skye

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    Just today finished Ultima V with all the "less than obvious" quest paths. Absolutely loved it. Sota...? Meh. What little I have done in the quest line is just as you say. I sure hope there is more. Starting Ultima VI today since I am on a high right now (though I really should take a break likely).
     
  4. StrangerDiamond

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    As I'vc said previously, these are all introductory quests... its bound to get more complex, some quests will be rather hard to just find period.

    I'm patient, but yea... I should be giving help with localization in french, but with all my experience with continuity and flow I should be editing the main scripts. Translating incomplete and placeholder quests sounds like a waste of time.

    The dialogue with the oracle is frustrating me every single time I visit too...

    But yea we need to remember that Lum and Gina are making the content, so thats quite a small team for making all things contiguous. :(
     
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  5. Lord_Darkmoon

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    But when are they supposed to become more complex? We had this discussion about the tutorial. I think even in the tutorial quests should be complex and exciting, but ok. So we have simple and straightforward quests in the tutorial. But shouldn't they start to get complex and interesting after the tutorial? How long do I have to play until I get a really exciting quest? Where is the point where those of us who are playing for the story and quests become so frustrated that they quit the game?

    And yes it is a small team... talking about priorities. I wonder if there are any plans to add some others to the quest/writing team...
     
  6. StrangerDiamond

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    Indeed, especially for the single player experience, I started getting worried too because when content started pouring out it looked like a good start, then we have the impression that its stagnating, like big time.

    But its just an impression... I am a royal seer and I have been on the premises in lucid spirit form. I have seen the amount of lore that is supposed to be incorporated into the story and let me tell you even with all my experience I was amazed. In fact my problem was that it would be hard to make it in time and include everything that is "planned".

    Now if the Medieval sims online devs are calling the shots, thats where we have a problem. When you have a great story you need to make room for it, and right now it looks like they are awfully focused on trying to copy other games and not follow the true Lord British way.

    Clues to that effect are when we see the PvP flag concept, the high level pvp balancing (mages being balanced with warriors is so anti-roleplay), pvp this pvp that while there is not even a goal of connecting said pvp to the story, dropping mandatory reagents etc. The disconnect is huge and I suggest you all keep respectfully giving feedback about it until they give way. Because when they get out of their illusory bubble, it will be your guys they listen to.

    Because the content is there, and the purpose is true... its just that they want to make a dynamic story because as a storyteller its much less limited and much more fun, so if they added all the content right now, people would wiki it and the MMO part would immensely suffer...

    it's a fine line balancing those...
     
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  7. Gix

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    I don't know about tutorial quests being complex, but they should definitely set the tone for things to come. The game should be immediately captivating from the get-go. The space scene where you see the earth and you're answering the questions does a good job of setting that up, but game-play that follows has to match it too.

    By "game-play", I'm also including problem solving and moral decision making.

    While not the best example, I feel that GuildWars 2 is the most modern example of a tutorial segment that doesn't shy away from giving you a massively epic moment while still giving you some character choices (even though it gives no hints as to whenever or not your choices made a difference).

    Most definitely.

    Care to give an example?

    Also, I'm pretty convinced that it's Lord British himself who's pushing the Medieval Sims Online approach more than anyone else on the team. Attention to detail is only fantastic and praise-worthy if there's a solid video game backing it up.
     
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  8. Bowen Bloodgood

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    This is what Starr wrote in the Final Wipe post over 2 months ago.

    In other words.. the Love storyline isn't scheduled to be finished until R32. We've got another good 3 months to go on it and the other two main storylines won't be done until after that.
     
  9. StrangerDiamond

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    Actually I've followed all threads and seen all post mortems and hangouts, and everytime RG is trying to make something old school and ultima like, mandatory reagents for exmaple, the other devs are saying it isn't possible because if its not convenient enough people won't play (cause people are lazy and unloyal to the niche it seems).

    So no... for many, many issues, RG has been voted out of the process, I remember at least 5 times I had to even close the computer and go take a walk outside because I was pumping way too much anger and testosterone about it.
     
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  10. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Actually having watched all hangouts and post mortems myself.. I can't recall this scenario playing out even once.
     
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  11. StrangerDiamond

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    I guess it depends where you focus... I came in expecting a "lord british game" so I was looking for those peculiar details in the first place.

    Also you cannot generalize on the scenario... sometimes it was direct, other times it was indirect comments that were touted as "unnoficial" by RG but they still touched my UO soul. He put my hopes up alot lets put it that way, but other devs have often cited technical reasons why some things werent possible, other times it was social reasons, etcetera. Those times that put me out of myself were about very different situations... if I felt like that its because I thought the reason was invalid to the extreme.

    One argument that comes to mind quick is when it was asked why materials cost more sometimes than the end result.

    the reason given was this : "well when you buy yarn for making a shirt, it often costs more than buying the shirt itself."

    My thought was : well maybe you got a really bad plug for your yarn, cause I know places that sell biological grass fed free range sheep yarn for 3 times cheaper than the price I see at "hobby stores". Of course the "end price" of the shirt is being compared to is a cheap shirt from walmart made with chemical treated yarn and done in sweatshops by child labor. Of course the comparison is technically valid, but not realist for a roleplaying game IMO.

    So in truth, they are making a thought process based upon a total scam... that was in a discussion about the fact that there was a lack of item sink, and came in sequence to the argument that since items cost so much to craft, they shouldn't be lootable by monsters of pvpers. As you see these subjects that affect me are very complex, I'm very complex.

    You see what affects me most probably makes no difference for you... I'm speaking through my hat here but thats the most plausible reason for you not to notice since my focus and vision for a "lord british game" is much different.
     
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  12. Tahru

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    The thing I love most about this post is that it is with 100% certainly a 100% sincere opinion from a long term highly respected member of the community which nobody could contest the sincerity of intent. Thank you Lord darkmoon and may the developer God's take you input with supreme importance.
     
  13. Beaumaris

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    Here is what interests me.

    Why don't we hear more about the game's backstory in development posts on the portal site front page? We have a wonderful work by Tracy Hickman and LB to create back story for the game, but there appears to be little connection to it in game news or here in development discussions. Its like the truth, love, courage stories are something else all together.

    I know far far more about the Star Citizen game lore from its web site and forum discussions than SOTA's, and that game is much farther from launch.
     
  14. StrangerDiamond

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    As I said, this is because they ARE something else... Lum and Gina are fleshing out the main "tutotial" quests and filling side quests and NPCs while RG and TH are working on the more mystical complex and still hidden from view real dynamic story that is going to unfold as we progress through the episodes.

    The content is hidden for a good reason, because they expect someone to take the torch of avatarhood from old Ahu. Sure its hard to understand from the single player perspective in the current state, but they cannot release those details and quests without ruining the multiplayer "one world" side.

    So be patient, its coming and its going to be breathtaking :)
     
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  15. Bowen Bloodgood

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    I somewhat remember that hangout. The item cost had nothing to do with why they should or shouldn't be lootable. Not that I necessarily agree with the actual reasoning. Believe it or not I'm a full loot in PvP kinda guy. You take the risk.. you know it going into PvP.. the body is there.. (either you or the other player).. there's physically no reason you shouldn't be able to loot it. But yadda yadda we want players to feel they can use their 'good' gear blah blah blah.. the actual relative cost of making that gear isn't really the point so much as thinking the fear of loss is a deterrent to PvP.

    The whole yarn costing more than the shirt was another issue that wasn't Richard vs the others.. It was in regards to the economy and not wanting players to be able to mass produce and sell to NPCs for fast fortunes. The only situation where anyone just shot Richard down was cannibalism.. but if Richard wants something in really badly it's up to him whether or not to budge. He has that authority. All the other stuff as I see it is just open discussion.
     
  16. Tiina Onir

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    That's because Star Citizen puts all their effort into lore and painfully little into getting gameplay right. It shows in the state of their game too.

    They've realized that pretty graphics and lore supports the hype-train. If you look into it, Star Citizen was announced a year BEFORE SotA, and had about the same original release estimate. The reason they are "much farther from launch" is because they have devoted a disproportionate amount of man-hours to lore and graphics, while neglecting making a fun game.
     
  17. StrangerDiamond

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    Nice I didn't know you had this opinion about roleplay sound pvp rules !

    You have a good memory, you are probably right... but yea that is one thing that made me take a walk the cannibalism issue.

    I came in expecting a Lord British game as I said, so a world where someone can cut your body into pieces to do necromancy or simply a stew to give to someone they don't like (cause my meat is foul, hehe).

    The only part I see RG pushing for a more medieval sims type of system is when he keeps reminding Lum not to swear because this is PG-13.

    Well thats another thing right here... to me a Lord British game always has been R rated, no restriction upon storytelling, no restriction on art, no restriction on player evilness or chat.

    When it started going sideways I started to really wonder if they believed they would attract alot of steam Pg-13 players. My opinion is that this is a niche game and should focus on roleplay not convenience and political correctness.

    But then people chimed in the relevant discussions and said they want to play with their families... if this was a D&D game and we switched from rated R to pg-13, I would leave instantly.

    Sorry we'll remove evil alignements, we'll remove reprehensible morally and politically incorrect actions... dosen't fly with me. Even dragonlance books are "heavier" than that...
     
  18. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Online interactions not rated by the ESRB.. a quote driven home to me by my experience in Sims Online.. unbelievable.. but that's another story. The point I want to make is that Richard never used 'R' language in his games. As for the other stuff.. well that was highly pixelated. ;)

    I have my own reasons to not want cannibalism. In short, even among PvPers there are those who have their own reasons to not want to feel like it's forced on them. It's the sort of thing I think people should have to opt into.. rather than out of.. Otherwise it depends on how game treats it. But then again.. another discussion. I've more or less exhausted myself on those topics 2 years ago. :)
     
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  19. StrangerDiamond

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    Yea I feel ya... maybe not rated R language in the game itself, but sure rated R content... murders, prostitutes, gambling, drinking, piratry, thieving... thats what I meant.

    They say they want a united gameplay front yet now everything is opt in and everyone gets separated by the instance matching anyways... I'm still puzzled about how this went through Q&A...
     
  20. StrangerDiamond

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    The guardian spying on me while I'm spending precious intimate time with my lady is pretty rated R... the guardian is a perv, bowwowow bowowow :p
     
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