Do we get compensated for writing?

There's definitely some conflict in the lore there. On the one hand, the lore strongly insists that Avatars have just recently returned, but on the other hand, there are going to be a ton of Avatars with titles of nobility and giants mansions. I agree that I doubt many Avatars would be writing first thing on coming to this new world, but I also doubt so many Avatars could so easily acquire wealth, fame, and political power in a world to which they just arrived.

A standard contract would probably be a good idea just to thwart any threats of a suit, but if anyone did sue, they likely wouldn't win. Freelancers and independent contractors are rarely protected by the same laws that protect regular employees, so in cases like this (where a business is accepting submissions of creative work but is not offering pay), the business is usually operating in line with the law. Portalarium should be concerned about other aspects of its business, but they are aware of this and are looking into it.

 

Captain Jack has retrospectivly looked up some of the old Ultima lore and was impressed by it, not just the core of it but also the "content" books that fill out the game as well. It was all very interesting.

Captain Jack would love to participate in that aspect in Shroud of the Avatar, and he would do so completly free of charge. It would be reward enough for Captain Jack just to simply have any body of his work included in the game, and lets be honest with SotAs budget if all of you thought the same way Captain Jack did, the game would be much better for it. Captain Jack thinks some of you here should be just a little ashamed for jumping on the money bandwagon like this!

That being said Captain Jack is still unwilling to submit works for one simple reason, and that is the process SotA has chosen to use for peer review by those Scripes people. Captain Jack belives they outsourced this to the crowd due to time and resource constraints which he understands, but at the same time does not agree with review of submitted works by his peers so cannot submit work. Also this goes to show you, if they are too busy to read our crap, why would they create an infrastructure around paying us for it!

 

Hmm...Captain Jack, if Portalarium lacks the time and resources to review all of these submissions on their own (i.e.., obviously, FireLotus can not do this all by herself) and you don't want your peers (The Council of Scribes) to review them, what other alternative do you suggest?

 

"Valuable Premise"
That is a very good vantage point from which to view entering our reality from. This same thought not so clearly defined was one of the reasons why I offered up early the use by anyone of the Time Lord name... "Though that is a very outdated concept because it leads a bridge from Ultima Online which we do need to remain unconnected from"... The ~TL~ would have to be some kind of travel agent to have accommodated so many
I do enjoy this outlook that Greymarch points out. It brings up thoughts of a sort of "Robinson Crusoe" styled book to be needed. (((Anyone Please Feel Very Free to Style Their Book in That Way!))) "I think it would make a wonderful premise!"
I also believe that another good premise would be written in the historic style of "The Bold Stranger, By Fabio the Poor" would make a good premise of our current prehistory account of the time period that we are currently in.
One of the most enticing works I believe that is needed is to find a grand premise of how we all got here, or how an individual arrived or woke up here. One person's account of this could even be some form of Star Citizen Crash! from their Beta Testing as long as the creators of both stay as close friends as they are Which brings my mind back to the mentioning of "Classic Children's Tales 1+2" where the premise is that these could be, or could not be true tales from older or more distant realities or histories.
>>>->Click Here for References of old UO in game Books as examples of premise<-<<<

Many "Life Rafts" have empty books to record information and stories of ship wrecks in the Robinson Crusoe style. For that matter we could be victims of Alien Abductions and that's why all the cows seem just as they are on earth. Or maybe the inhabitant Natives of the Vale are actually where we were first Alien Abducted From and only now have they returned us back to the original farm (((Again, Please Anyone Feel Very Free to Use Any of These Premise)))

But in all this mentioned above does bring us back to the questions and indications of the OP and how valued that idea could be if it were a good one and even written in the style of the Children's Classics of UO, where they may be a fancy lie told to children or they could hold some truth.

Our current introduction lends itself to Tron where Jeff Bridges get's sucked into "The Grid" which makes me wonder what our beloved Lebowski would think of all of this, or how he got here. Such references of past influence in our minds have always been an Ultima Tradition throughout our history. The Three Stooges were some of the first cannibals yet referenced in a way as to be a stylized pun or comedic innuendo in a nod, which makes me wonder if Sponge Bob, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or even the Teletubbies should not be referenced in the same way, so as to keep close to our deep tradition of the nod in the pun.
(((Feel Free to Take Notes From All of This Writers Because Such Has Always Been in Our Literary History)))

Yet here we are back to the OP again wondering why actual money came into this argument when we have so many free things that have or will have monetary value in the future as being a better reward in the style of virtual property that did not cost our company a dime to make "over and over again" for good use in such instance as compensation. Such rewards are "art" and as such can never have a fixed value that could ever be truly defined as being not enough or too much to ask for, for our good and better book ideas and writings.
This brings to mind an old guild house of the TFS (The Fellowship) of Siege Perilous Shard (UO), where it was the first house ever built/placed on that shard and has that fact specially placed on it's house sign put there by EA/Origin. Here we have a book product that could have issued a "Special First Addition" and noted as such on it's cover to become a rare that would have growing value and special as a memento to not only to that person or persons that helped write it, but also to any other person that would acquire it thereafter... "It would have a growing value"...

Money? The money that any book writing is first worth to our Portalarium or to any of us surely won't pay your light bill, but given 5 years from now... "That Rare Book or Memento could"...
But I'll say this one more time, it's the event itself and the enticement within it that would be worth more money through more players being enticed to the project by way of becoming members to buying the game
And that's a value that helps all of us!
~Time Lord~

 

I write because I enjoy writing. That is sufficient reward. If I'm really lucky, someone will tell me they like one of my stories - no amount of money can buy that feeling.

 

If I ever write a book it will be because I want to add my story to the game world, not to be financially recompensed, I personally think its crazy to want financial rewards for this.

 

Writing for the audience of the game and compensation for writing of good stuff is for sure an interesting topic. But difficult as well.
Who will decide, which stories are good enough to be awarded? What one person likes, may be seen contradictionary by another one. Where is the limit? Eventually compensation for written stories should be capped per account or even per real person.
We also would have difficulties again with the international audience of the game: First their ability to write in correct English grammar is usually handicapped, second players from other countries may prefer books in their own spoken language.
Also do not underestimate the slackness (not sure, if the selected translation fits the German word "Trägheit" here) of Portalarium - but in context with the German translation of BotA, which is almost completed, I now wait since four months for some document, which Portalarium wants me to sign for copyright issues etc. Feels almost like dealing with a big publisher

*Salute*
Olahorand

 

"We are the Barter Kings"

"A Short Introduction to the Completely Legal Bartering System"
I can sympathize and have an empathy with that feeling, yet the same can be said of graphic art, music or any endeavor we do even to earn a living from. Our wonderful Portalarium loves to create games, yet they sell them for money. We love playing their games, thus we intern help support our beloved Portalarium with the money they need to feed their families as well as to enrich our game with their talents born of their love for gaming. Some of us pledge many 1000's of dollars because we love the Portalarium company's game that much. Our player writing efforts take time to do and we do enjoy any praise that comes from others having read them or reprinted them.

All of these above are creative art forms from the talents of love within us. They don't cost us money to create, yet they take talent that comes from love. Our Portalarium has a byproduct of being able to mass manufacture their graphic art with little to no added costs to them. Love is a virtual value that cannot be sold but can be exchanged between us.

Others here wisely point out, that we need to protect our Portalarium company from any legal issues that could arise and as friends who share a common love, we all search out those issues to protect them. Many years ago in Ultima Online, we/they had GM (Game Masters) that were volunteers because those people loved providing their aide to help support that beloved game. Yet, after some time had past, there came a trouble through "some legal issue" (I don't know exactly what that was) regarding the local and international laws in regard to the volunteer workers parameters. There was some trouble over this unforeseen stumbling block that was beyond anyone's control to avoid, no matter if anyone wanted to donate their time to fulfilling the need in the job of being a GM as being free or not, the laws did not allow for that. Thus UO had to pay minimum wages for all their previously all volunteer GMs.
I'm not sure what all the particulars were in regard to all that, because I was never a GM. I was a Troubadour once, but that area of endeavor never had such troubles and was still all volunteer.

I just wanted to point out here, that no player posting here on this thread with their concerns is doing so just to have our Portalarium buy us all a sandwich in the middle of the desert or have donuts fall from the sky to feed our families. Most all of us here are just looking out for our beloved Portalarium's best interests, "which could easily solved by a very legal mutual barter arrangement in the form of exchanging virtual graphic art for written accepted submissions".

Have you ever watched a show called "The Barter Kings?"
~Time Lord~

 

To me there is a difference here from stories in books. The model for the chair is fixed, and all you can do is create an instance of it. You can't create a new chair model in-game.

With books, you can instantiate stories that have already been published, but also add entirely new ones in-game. Stories are peculiar because you can create this content entirely in-game - there is no absolute need to populate it in advance, unlike the chair model. I think that makes the dynamics somewhat different.

However, I see your point that if they want to populate some stories at the outset, it is still content even though they could just wait for the in-game mechanic to be in place. But I am still of the mind that I am fine without compensation.

This is one small area where I have been waiting to contribute and enjoy contributing, and now I wonder what's going to happen.

 

I understand how the peer review can chafe, but I hope you still consider doing it in-game. We need a "pirate laureate".

 

So, here's what I see as the problem with Portalarium's methods, both with crowdsourcing free work and offering below industry rates...

• Shroud of the Avatar risks compromised quality. This is self-explanatory. People are offered professional rates for professional jobs, and for Portalarium not to do this could result in parts of the game looking and sounding amateur. Talented individuals who know what their skills are worth, such as with the musicians, may choose not to make their services available at all.
• Portalarium risks tarnishing its professional reputation. Requesting work for free reflects a lack of understanding and respect for the value of talented creative writing as well as the time of those who are asked to provide it. This approach reflects on Portalarium's personal practices and standards and may be harmful to the professional reputation of Portalarium as a business.
• Artists risk being taken advantage of. Some people and companies see this method not as 'beneficial exposure/experience/fun for artists', but as a way to get free work; it also diminishes the true economic value of the contribution artists make toward Portalarium's game.
• There are legal risks for both parties should aspects of intellectual property, trademark and copyright infringements become a factor.

I know Portalarium has this dream of Shroud being a game with a large slice of community participation helping to build it, but unless they can source talented community members in a professional manner, perhaps they should settle for looking into introducing more methods that allow player-made media to be introduced naturally within the game post-release.

 

"and what 'twas once a simple joy,
by commun'ty comes unbound."

Look for this verse in an upcoming Mark's Tales of the Unremarkable!

Portalarium benefits from all sorts of fan activity that is not compensated, as do businesses in the real world, e.g., writing a positive review online. Amazon posts this non-professional content on their website. As far as I understand it, the original subject of this discussion was never designed to be professional content, but a way for the community to enjoy a different type of participation. If we cast everything in the cold light of compensation and professional standards, my purpose for participating in this community will be diminished: to learn and to have fun. Albeit the lines are blurred in these new models of building things, but talk of this sort can kill the simple joys of participating and having fun. I think if they say that Tales from the Vale is not designed to be professional content in the game, they will do just fine.

"Requesting work for free reflects a lack of understanding and respect for the value of talented creative writing as well as the time of those who are asked to provide it."
This is a little stiff. They do have Hickman after all. They're not asking for the crafting of the story arc. They're asking for player created books which will appear in game pre-populated or not. When a player creates a book after the game is released does it diminish professional reputations and lead to exploitation? Or should we shut it all down because of potential legal issues? Music, et. al., may be different, but this thread was originally about the Tales. They are by their very nature amateur products.

 

My opinion:
If you want to write for the love of writing and don't expect any reward or compensation, then that is your choice. I don't see anything wrong with people asking for compensation however. I don't write myself, and if I did, I would do it without wanting anything in return. But I respect the opinion and view points of those who would see their work rewarded. I don't see them as opportunists or that it demeans the efforts of those that do it regardless of reward.
We view compensation in so many different ways. Respect, approval, enjoyment, gratitude are very noble forms of currency. But compensation (digital or otherwise) is nothing to sneer or look down at.
I fully support the request to have an option to be compensated for player contributions in the form of the written word.

 

Reviews are not products. When you review a product or company, you are publicly offering information about that company--whether it be a criticism, a praise, or an analysis of business practices or ethics. These reviews are generally unsolicited, or, if they are solicited, the business cannot control what you write or where you publish it. As a consequence, reviews might help the business sell its product. They also might hurt the business. The business doesn't sell the review, too, so the issue of intellectual property is mostly irrelevant.

Conversely, the type of work that is being solicited here, regardless of presumptions which assume the quality thereof, is that of a product, and Portalarium's intent is to sell that product by way of incorporating it into another product, and one consequence of so doing will be an improving of the product, such that might improve sales of that product. It doesn't matter if they are looking for "little stuff" because "little stuff" has a big impact on the atmosphere of the game. By soliciting this work pre-launch, Portalarium is inviting non-employees to do exactly the kind of work that video game writers are typically paid to do in exactly the same ways and for exactly the same reasons that those game writers are typically paid to do their writing.

Similarly, it doesn't matter if you consider these products to be "amateur" or not because there is no distinction, in that sense, between "professional" and "amateur" products. That's how people get to be "professionals", after all--by convincing enough people to buy and use their stuff that they can live on their income, thus becoming personally dependent of the quality of their product. But that's not to say that an "amateur" can't make something every bit as good as a "professional". And it doesn't matter if the two products in question exhibit an obvious and incontestable difference in quality. They're both products, and both creators are protected in basically the same ways where it comes to the intellectual property behind their creation.

 

That's an admirable attempt to be respectful of all opinions, but if you do add in some sort of compensation, it changes the dynamics for everything. You can't have some compensated tangibly, some not. So, in reality, asking to be compensated does change the situation for everyone. I think the only way Tales from the Vale will survive is if they are considered amateur content that is not compensated.

 

Ok, what about the wiki, the walkthroughs (which have been promoted on the website), things that almost go hand in hand with the game. And with reviews the business can most certainly control them and often engages people to do that very thing. What about things created in other games that are "sold" along with them. A player created book in game will always be "sold with the game" for new purchasers. That's why I said the lines get very, very blurry. And I can feel it coming, that once these lines gets pushed and defined and looked into... it won't be the same.

 

They don't go hand in hand with the game. The elephants in the room here are the facts that Portalarium has solicited these entries and that Portalarium will be making final decisions on whether each submission should be included in the game.

As for things that are created for other games and sold along with the game, I don't think I know what you mean. Do you mean things like player books that are published post-release?

 

Portalarium has promoted some of these things on their website! What's the definition of "hand-in-hand"? What about avatar radio, which there was discussion about being able to play in game? My point is simply that the lines are blurry and there aren't simple solutions here once you start poking into it. There are too many gray areas, and simple questions like what constitutes "solicitation" and what constitutes "final decisions" are the things that help lawyers build big mansions.

Yes. If it's an issue pre-launch it's an issue post-launch. No matter how minimal Portalarium's review is after launch.


My simple point is this... once you start poking into it it's a whole new gray area of crowdsourcing/funding that I fear will have unexpected results.

 

I know you're perfectly happy with contributing your work for fun and for free. That's your choice and that's fine. Go for it.

That does not mean everyone else must feel the same way. Shroud isn't a mod, it's a commercial game that some of us have already paid quite a lot for. Some of these community members are concerned about compromised quality , about getting a game that was partially made by people who weren't the ones they forked out money to, and about enthusiastic fans who think like you do being used to fill the creative gaps Portalarium doesn't have the money (after raising more than 4 million dollars) to fill themselves.

Having actually employed one writer doesn't make the statement any less true.

Have you ever played any other RPGs that have books in them? Ultima 6 to 9? Skyrim? Dragon Age? Those aren't written by fans. Content doesn't have to be the main story arc to be a valuable part of a game's world. It doesn't even have to be serious. Some players actively seek out ingame books because they've been written by the game writers, and are therefore of a high caliber.

There is a difference between content that is put into the game by Portalarium, and content that's put into the game by players. The first is what Poralarium is going to claim ownership of and put their label on every time they sell a copy of the game. The latter is unofficial material in which they have had no creative input and can claim no responsibility (and probably only going to be visible in Online mode).

Anything Portalarium puts into the game themselves is official, and reflects on their game and company. Anything a player adds to the game is unofficial, and only reflects the player.

I want the community to have fun with Shroud, without feeling like they're being taken advantage of. But I also want Shroud to be a good, high-quality game. That includes writing, music, art...all of it!

 

FireLotus outright asked people to submit. That isn't gray area.

It does matter. What Portalarium is doing now is fleshing a game world out by giving the characters that live in it culture. They're accomplishing this through the review process by keeping things in line with established lore. Post-release books will not be reviewed by the Council of Scribes or by FireLotus, and they will not have the same restrictions set upon them for publishing. Further, because people will be free to publish those books within the game on their own actions and at their individual discretions, there is no type of business arrangement between Portalarium and the authors. Those books, due to the lack of review that will be in place at that time and to the ad hoc nature of publishing, might supplement the game's culture, but they also might take away from it.

If people don't poke into it now, there could still come unexpected results--only not just the kinds that give people migraines and make them feel annoyed. When businesses slip up on business decisions, it can cost them big, and it's always, always, always better to be safe than sorry in these senses. No one in this discussion intends malice. We just want to see Portalarium do right by the people who are making valuable contributions to development of the game--and in so doing, do right by its legal obligations, protecting itself from accusations of wrongdoing.

It's no secret that "big, open world" type games are generally produced by big studios, with lots of people doing lots of work. You didn't think all those people were programmers, did you? People get paid to do this work in this industry.