Has the vision for SotA changed since the Kickstarter campaign?

I was just visiting the Kickstarter page of SotA and read through it. Somehow this reads like a totally different game than what SotA seems to become now.
On the front page the word MMORPG is not even mentioned. And in the FAQ you can read: "Though Shroud of the Avatar won’t be a massively multiplayer online role playing game, it will be a multiplayer game."

It also says on the Kickstarter page:

- Shroud of the Avatar is the “spiritual successor” to Richard’s previous work in the FRP genre. Our primary objectives are to tell a story even more compelling than Ultimas IV-VII, create a virtual world more interactive than Ultima VII, develop deep rich multi-player capabilities beyond combat akin to Ultima Online, and offer a bold new approach to integrate them with “Selective Multi-Player”.

- Shroud of the Avatar is a Selective Multiplayer game, allowing players to choose how they want to play! Whether in Single-Player Offline mode or any of three online modes, the main quest line will provide greater than 40 hours of focused, story driven content.

- Shroud of the Avatar can be played as an offline DRM free solo experience or online, where our servers will enable player to player transactions, group finding, patching, streaming of dynamic content, and exploit prevention.

- Shroud of the Avatar is the first installment of Richard’s new vision and represents the reinvention of the classic, fantasy role-playing which he pioneered. A fantasy role-playing game that will focus more on player choices and discovery than on level grinding.

- Richard Garriott guided the Ultima Series from its inception in 1980, through the "trilogy-of-trilogies" of solo player games and later, the highly successful Ultima Online. Under his leadership, RPG's evolved from simple dungeon crawls to immersive worlds where you could easily suspend your disbelief. You cared about the world and its people, and you cared about the actions and deeds you accomplished within that world. Since then, most every other RPG has focused more on level grinding than on “role playing”, which has been reduced to a few initial character choices.

Also watch this video, in it there is clearly a very large focus for the single player part mentioned.
So what happened? Seems to me that the vision for the game changed significantly...



But maybe it's just mind playing tricks on me. It tends to do this occassionally if it gets not enough information on pressing matters like gameplay features for the single player part

 

It has, but you are going to get roasted for bringing it up. Sad really. It is definately an MMO first now.

 

You keep creating thread after thread saying the game has too much focus on online and that you know for a fact that the single player game was compromised because of this, except you're only assuming because we haven't really seen the plot or single player game yet.

A few months ago the PvP crowd kept repeating daily that PvP would never come, it was completely overlooked and obviously it was never designed for because it hadn't been implemented yet. And now it is.

In a thread where you asked about this, you got a response from LB himself who spoke about how story was still a major focus. There will be a full single player offline campaign. For you to insist that this isn't the case is effectively calling him a liar without grounds.

Every single point you copied from the Kickstarter page is still 100% valid today.

Continuing to create new threads like these don't help or make anything better. It makes the the single player fans look bitter, and it drives away potential new customers/pledges.

 

Like I said you would get posts like this....

This one was a bit harsh though.

I still think you are entitled to your opinion though, it's bizarre the amount of anger in responses take though. Why it is ok to keep making threads on PVP but make a thread like this and you will be attacked, I'm at a loss for.

 

Maybe we should vote for a single player subforum in which we can post such things without having to use the "general forum".

And I keep mentioning it and reminding people because this is very important for me.

 

I pointed out as an example similar assumptions people made before with PvP (with repeated threads) that proved false.

This isn't the first time he has brought up this issue. He does make repeated threads on the same topic. He did get a direct response from LB that he is choosing to ignore to continue to complain. I've tried to help him by taking some of his questions directly to DarkStarr, asking if I can get answers to put in the FAQ.

I do think the points laid out in the Kickstarter are 100% still valid with the current design of the game. And he is basically saying the devs are lying on their promises. Calling someone a liar without proof is not something I take lightly, so it warrants a harsh response.

 

I played UO for a few months at launch and left because the PKers and griefing drove me away. I generally can't stand most MMOs. I backed this hoping for a spiritual successor to Ultima IV-VII. It is absolutely important to me as well.

But I also trust what has been said by the dev team and I'm patiently waiting for more details to arise rather than accusing the devs of lying in their pitch.

 

I think a single player forum is a good idea. However, I don't think the focus has changed. I agree that there is not much talk about single player itself, but I would not want them too. Main reason I am not in game more often is so I still have some surprises when there is a game there. That said none of it means the game wont turn out differently than any individual expects it to be, but I think the focus and the development progress has gone fairly close to how they said it would. Obviously there will be some deviations, but having worked on software projects I see things are pretty much being on target.

I wouldn't count the single player out yet. Its just the multiplayer would need the most testing and even single player content can be tested that way as well.

 

I don't agree. I don't see him calling LB a liar...what LB said is they are still working on the story....

There is a lot more things that have been affected/changed to make it a mmo at this point.

People hoping for a game like ultima 7 and such are a bit bitter with how close we are getting to a UO clone with story. It's a valid point in my opinion.

Discusing these items should be done where exactly?

I'm not calling the dev's liars but it still remains to be seen what actually makes it in game.

 

Wait, I never said that the devs were lying. I just said the vision seems to have changed. And maybe I am even wrong about this.

 

There are several thread in the past where he said they aren't focusing on single player/story and that it is actively suffering because of online, and when LB tried to re-assure him, he ignored it and kept on with his claims.

This new post is specifically saying that LB's promises in the KS are no longer true. Not upholding your promises is lying. This very thread is an accusation of dishonesty.

 

Um, don't you think you over reacting just a bit there?

Companions have gone through quite a change since the kickstarter....to the point they are not even a point any more. Is that lying or just changing things?

 

Lying is intentional to mislead people. This is not the case here. I am sure that during the Kickstarter what was said was meant but during development priorities might have changed which might have resulted in the game becoming something different. But maybe this is all just me and I am misinterpreting things...

 

No, I don't.

If you promise one thing and then do something contrary to your promise, that is by its definition a lie in the clearest sense.

Certain design decisions changed over the course of the Kickstarter. But the pitch video never said "you'll have companions that are similar in feature and design to companions from this other game". I'm personally disappointed it isn't in budget/scope for episode 1 to have proper companions. But it wasn't a directly outlined promise of the KS either.

The overall design and vision of the project is however still fulfilling the promises on the KS. It was always a hybrid approach since day 1 of a single player campaign delivered in a sandbox that can be experienced with selective multiplayer. That is absolutely true today.

 

But then why continue to bump the post? You are equally guilty of saying the same thing over and over and over again.

 

As much as I'm surprisingly enjoying the "MMO" part of the game (so much so that I've increased my pledge significantly), I did initially pledge for the single-player offline experience so I think I can understand Darkmoon's frustration. I think the problem is we only hear about the multiplayer part of the game. At least I only do.

For instance:
We hear about the player economy in Single Player Online, Multiplayer, and Friend mode. We never hear about how the economy will actually work in single-player offline.
We know about player-run towns and player-owned towns for multiplayer. I've brought up that the maps will look empty in single-player offline only to have other forum users tell me these maps will basically be ghost towns in offline-only mode. Have devs confirmed this?

I get that they're still building the game and I imagine that there's a lot of work done that we have yet to see. It's possible that RG is still working out how single-player offline economy will work or I haven't heard about it because I don't sit through the hours-long Google chats.

Single-player story isn't everything and I have no doubt we're going to get an amazing story. But I think there is doubt that the single-player systems will be as rock-solid as the multiplayer systems. And trying to dismiss such doubt with "gotta have faith" is missing the point of the issue: the lack of clear communication about the offline game vs the multiplayer game. If the developers at least would add disclaimers that this part of the game will work differently in the offline game and so on and so forth, it would alleviate a lot of that doubt.

 

I have no personal stake in this particular argument since I'll be playing multi player, but I fully understand where the single player fans are coming from with this. Not upholding promises and/or changing ones mind is absolutely not the same thing as lying which implies intent. I don't see where the op says anything about intent or lying.

LB's post you mentioned, if I'm thinking of the same thread, said nothing about the mechanics of single play. He said they don't want to give story spoilers, which if I'm not mistaken is not what they are asking for. In fact in every thread I've seen on this subject that did get any kind of answer, the answer has been "sorry, no spoilers" when no one was asking for spoilers that I could see. They're asking about the single player game experience, which I don't think is unreasonable. And when something goes unanswered for a very long time, it's only natural for someone to start feeling neglected.

 

Because I differentiate behavior from personality.

If Lord Darkmoon had a post in the Game Features sub-forum saying "I hope to see features X, Y, and Z and I hope the design is leaning this way" I'd more than likely agree with him and like his posts even if I don't because they'd be constructive criticism.

I believe the behavior of telling people that LB is not delivering on KS promises to be harmful to the community and I'd like to see it stop. I don't think Lord Darkmoon wants to harm the community. He just wants another Ultima game.

Half this community backed because they loved the classic single player Ultima games. Half backed because they loved UO. There is some overlap there as well. The game was always designed as a hybrid, and if you ask people on the either side you'll find people worried the hybrid approach will leave them wanting. Can Portalarium fully deliver with a small team and a small budget? That is yet to be seen, but I wouldn't throw money at the project unless I believed in them and was willing to put my money where my mouth is. But I absolutely believe without a shadow of a doubt that this is a team of integrity that will make a herculean effort to deliver on promises and try to make the entire community happy.

The devs took a much needed holiday in December, turned around and put out perhaps the biggest, most impressive release yet. But this game is still a long way from being complete. Just because we don't see something implemented and visible in game yet does not mean that it hasn't been planned or won't be implemented.

We just have to be patient.

 

You do know they spoke about companions in the hangouts and interviews as well right? I'm not making this up. I've been here from day one. Their approach to companions has totally changed.

Things change in game design I get that.

I don't think this overreaction, by saying shutup and sitdown basically, is required. If I'm reading to much into your tone on the subject I apollagize...I'm honestly a bit taken aback by the post you made.

 

And in all the Hangouts and Interviews they clearly mention how they're spit-balling ideas and to "not lawyer them bro" where as the KS pitch is a firm commitment.