Houses are in limited quantity? ? (Dev) Replied

Discussion in 'Housing & Lots' started by Anuuk, Mar 9, 2013.

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  1. Lord Kei

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    I am sure those with access to Dev forum later on will help to push for inn, subletting of space etc.

    I know I will.
     
  2. Duke Ironman

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    Exactly Kei. We do want to protect our investments.
     
  3. Duke Crachazz

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    @Velner lol, so mentioning that someone pledged for a city house is bragging in your book? You must be quite an envious person, it's a game and people fund it so you can play.

    So dunno, maybe work harder then you can afford one too, or be happy that many others pledge so you get the chance to have a house without paying real money.
     
  4. Duke Ironman

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    Thanks for making my day Crachazz.
     
  5. marthos

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    I dont like the idea of limiting houses to one per account. That won't stop gold farmers from buying houses, they'll simply buy another account. What it does is hurt the guy who has a successful in-game business who wants to expand, and cannot afford the real life $50 for a second account. If someone wants to run 3 businesses in different parts of the world, I think he should be able to without having to fork out more real life money. The taxes from three houses should be high enough to discourage casual folks from being able to own lots of houses, it should be only for those dedicated enough to put the time in-game to pay triple taxes.

    Regarding gold farmers, they don't ruin a game. If the game is designed in such a way that gold pours into the economy without ever leaving the economy, its not the farmers that wreck the economy, its the designers. The best way to make money is probably going to be through crafting and selling items to other players. If that's gold farming, I'm okay with it! But if you can make a lot of money farming an orc spawn, there are bigger issues with the economy as a whole that need to be tackled.

    I wouldn't want to see restrictions put in place to combat a problem in other games that may not even be a problem in this game. It's pre-alpha...it's a concept...it's way too soon to complain about gold farmers ruining this game. Let's see how the economy is going to be designed first.
     
  6. Duke Ironman

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    Fair points Marthos. Especially your part about gold farmers. Taxes should be high and rent from inn/camp based housing would be a wonderful way to remove money from the economy.
     
  7. Korrigan

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    That kind of replies actually prove Velner is right:

    "Tell them to stick to consoles if they need hand holding"

    and of course also:

    "@Velner lol, so mentioning that someone pledged for a city house is bragging in your book? You must be quite an envious person, it?s a game and people fund it so you can play.

    So dunno, maybe work harder then you can afford one too, or be happy that many others pledge so you get the chance to have a house without paying real money."

    What a nice community this game will have. Thankfully, there will be the small party and offline modes.
     
  8. Jatvardur

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    First off: I don't think people should be boasting about the size of their properties but certainly they are allowed to be excited about purchases. How to state something matter-of-factly without coming across as a boaster? Always tricky when money is involved.

    Everything Marthos said 2 posts above, massive +1. Limiting housing to one per account is more likely to have an unintended consequence of punishing honest but successful players (imo, natch). Recall my previous statement that assets are also liabilities, and that the market will set prices.

    Furthermore on gold farming, I think it is worth remembering that gold tends to decrease in dollar terms over time. If 10 gold equals $1 this year, it might be that 15 gold equals $1 a couple years later. Gold farmers always run that risk. Likewise for housing, if many more homes are brought to market over the years then it brings a headwind to house prices in dollar terms (and probably in-game terms too). I think that location will be the biggest factor for determining price. Size and rent-free status (if transferable) are lesser factors.

    I'm guessing that a Town house in wonderful location is more valuable than a City house in a poor location. There is absolutely no guarantee that someone who buys a City house now will get a great location such that it is worth more than every Town house. If you paid $3000+ for a city house yet the potential resale value is less than a fellow player who paid only $1500, or worse $500, than you will be pretty pissed. Resale value isn't everything but it is certainly a huge factor. If you decide to quit (for whatever reason) then you stand to lose a lot of money.

    The reason for the kickstarter is to raise funds and connect with the player ("client") base. How does RG attract "investors" to put in money at the higher level of pledging? The players need to see rewards / return on investment (which doesn't need to be real money but rather value for money in the game). Here is my line of thinking / analysis that I did before pledging:

    Paying $500 for a rent-free village house is similar to paying an equivalent upfront fee of $10/month for 50 months (~4 years). Considering that you are guaranteed a house deed with a spot on the map and no further in-game costs I'd say you have a very low amount of risk and actually a safe investment. 4 years isn't a long time but if you hate the game after a month of playing then you lose out. Not a huge risk here and it is by far the "best" investment of all the upper level pledges. A comparable analysis of the upper level of housing (taking the same $10/month assumption) gives:

    150 months (12 years) for $1500, or 24 years for $3000, or 28 years for $3500.


    Let's rework that to adjust for the extra benefits:

    If you consider a rent-free Town house as being like a preferred subscriber who pays (say) $15/month then you could consider your $1500 as pre-paying for 100 months or 8 years.

    Or, consider a rent-free city house as being a premium subscriber at $20/month then the fee of $3000 is like pre-paying for 150 months, or 12 years.

    These are more reasonable figures but it does tie you in to a game for a long time that you have no guarantee to enjoy even if we are to assume that it is almost guaranteed to be successful.

    To return to the key point which is the ability to sell the deed, and more importantly the lot on which it sits: it allows one to be released from such a pre-paid "contract". Any money not recouped can be considered the cost of playing the game, provided it isn't a huge loss then people won't mind. The upside is really unknown but it depends on how many new houses are built, and not even Richard knows that exact figure at the time of writing. Investors just hope that it won't completely wipe out any _potential_ resale value, or if you stay in the game for the long term you have to hope that houses aren't very easy to get with in-game cash otherwise then the $20/month upfront (equivalent) fee probably wasn't worth it.
     
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  9. Duke Ironman

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    Jatvardur you rule.
     
  10. marthos

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    Jatvardur, to some of the points you made:

    1. The plan is to add more landmasses of equal size each year for the expansions. The number of available city, town, and village houses will increase. And, given that most MMOs see a spike of activity at launch and then gradually settle down to a smaller playerbase, it is more likely that the demand for houses will stay constant as the supply increases over the years. We will see the active players moving their houses to the newest landmass where the "endgame" players are handing out, freeing up houses on the older landmasses for the more casual / new players.

    2. One thing that is hard to calculate, but very important, is the impact that this fundraising campaing will have on their ability to secure other financing. Being able to show investors that 16000 players have already pre-ordered $1.2 million worth of the game based on a pre-alpha prototype will do well to secure them additional funding if they need it.

    3. Likewise, another hard to calculate benefit is having access to the dev forums. I've seen dev interaction on other MMOs and one thing that often comes up as a response to a feature request is that their systems weren't built to handle it. By getting in on the ground floor, pre-alpha, you have the ability to really guide the direction of the game. There is a lot of value there for you as an individual gamer to have a game better reflect what you want. The unknown variable here is how well will the team listen to the people that have this access. If they just ignore all the comments, its worth $0 (I dont think that they will do that, but its a possibility).

    So in additional to valuing your donation at a $10-20 subscriber level, also consider that each of your $1 could help RG acquire say $5 in outside financing and you're going to have a game that better reflects a game you want to play.
     
  11. Jatvardur

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    Hard to guess how much additional financing is needed, I wasn't aware that it was an issue. However, the key point is the relative differences of pledges and therefore the relative risks. The absolute risks are dependent upon personal income/ savings/ risk tolerance.

    The point of donating $1 to help RG raise $5 is a nice thing to do but it says nothing about why I should take on excess risk and or subsidize other players. If my KS pledge was pure charity / subsidy then I would have bet at a far lower level, as would many others. Which goes back to the point of taking on extra risk for a greater potential return that benefits myself, either on investment in dollar terms or in terms of value for money.

    That's always the bottomline for me. I would perhaps be willing to pay $60 up front for the game then $10/month on a rolling basis but if I'm asking to tie up my money for a long time then I need to see a good reason why. Cloths maps / dev forums / etc are all nice but there is no way would I pay an extra $10/month up front for the equivalent of 12, 24 or 28 years just for that.
     
  12. Duke Ironman

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    I will admit that a large reason that I contributed a pledge was because the Developers forum. Part of me is just interested in watching a project like this develop and that's worth a lot to me. I know that I'll get daily entertainment just following this which has value. Plus, a part of me would wants to support one of my childhood heroes in his vision. I'm a jerk, but I'd rather support that than many real charities out there.

    Jatvardur says it perfect when the risk is dependent upon personal income, savings, and risk tolarance. I will add to that successful life investments too. People need to stop this hate of the successful. I'm tired of people that chat that Lord British doesn't need the money because he is rich. Rich people don't swim in their money in vaults. He is investing a big portion of his wealth to provide value for many Ultima fans and online gamers. I'm investing a portion of my wealth for my own personal gain, but it is also for the good of all.

    Hate all you want, but the reason I can afford to invest this much is because of other successful investments in my past. Sorry....I feel like I'm lecturing kids
     
  13. Duke Crachazz

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    @Korrigan stop being silly.

    People mention they donated for a city home, then say they want others to have houses too, then get insulted and when they react to the insult someone else chimes in and accuses them of being bad for the community, lol...

    Seriously, take a look in the mirror, think about it and then say again which behaviour here is bad for the community... :)
     
  14. XiDragon

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    I played Ultima Online from 1 year after it was launchend on for many years and was always able to come by a house when I needed or wanted to. Because I wasn't a power gamer I had to make compromises so. But to be honest before Trammel came it was more difficult but even then it was not impossible. But what that also created was that I always was very proud when I finally accomplished to buy or place a house. This feeling of accomplishment would vanish if there would be a guaranteed house-spot for everyone!
     
  15. Duke Ironman

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    That's exactly why we are sick of the housing whiners. They want the big house without having to work for it. If you don't want to pledge, that's fine. Go for the accomplishment that XiDragon is talking about. It will be there if you work for it. I still do think they need camp/inn type housing to hold people off. I know I want to be able to rent a room or two in my house. It frustrates me that we still haven't heard about co-ownership or renting.
     
  16. Korrigan

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    I've actually canceled my Kickstarter pledge and won't be funding this game, after having seen what kind of community this "real money" model breeds.

    I wish you good luck and godspeed, Mr British, but after having bought all your games since Ultima III, I won't be funding this one. Just read this thread... look at what kind of elitism you have bred even before the game is released or even in alpha. I don't want to give $500 to fund a game populated by such people, there's no fun in playing with people who think about a game that way, so I keep my money and will invest it in games which aren't based on the "first to pay, only to be served" model.
     
  17. Duke Crachazz

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    elistism... lol. Man, you need a reality check. Now please stop crying.
     
  18. High Baron Asguard

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    This really smacks of "pay to win" unfortunately. Personally I don't mind paying for extras, I paid for the collectors edition and for those with the money to pay for a tour of the castle with Richard good luck to them and I don't even mind people paying for things in game which others can't get like collectors edition stuff. But when you are effectively saying that a core game mechanic should either be buy it now off the plans for a huge sum ($500 is around the min weekly wage) or become a gold spammer or like that guy who played Diablo to death and maybe even then you won't get it, that is a little bit over the top and a really poor way to treat those who are giving you there own money to help you out without getting any equity back the way a normal investor would.
     
  19. Korrigan

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    @crachazz
    The people needing a reality check are those paying several thousands of dollars just to own a virtual property in a video game that's not even in alpha yet.
     
  20. Duke Ironman

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    Korrigan. To some of us donating 1500 is not a big deal. Less than a weeks pay. I respect your right to walk away, but no when you respond you are just coming off as jealous. We are not just buying virtual property. We are paying to be part of the development of this game. This is not pay to win. This is just a pay for a perk
     
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