Hybrid-Magic System

Ok shameless plug time.. I know you don't want to be cooking mama but I'm still a fan of this idea in general. It does add a little depth for reagents.

Reagents: Refining & Mixing Spells

@redfish had a few ideas too that are interesting.

 

I don't know, from my perspective the deciding factor to whether something is lore relevant or not isn't how much time I need to spend with it, but how much of an understanding of interesting game systems can be conveyed through the lore. An interesting system for me simply is more than just mandatory multi-step upkeep procedures I have to do over and over as I play. Interesting systems are the ones that let me make choices in the moment to moment gameplay.

For example, for interesting magic systems you could have a question like: Do I hit an enemy with fire or with ice?

The most boring type of system goes "It doesn't really matter, damage is damage".

It might be a little more interesting if enemies have specific resistances, and picking the right spell against whatever enemy you're fighting lets you do more damage, but that is still only interesting for a while until it just becomes something you do without even thinking about it.

Now a really interesting system to answer that sort of question would have multiple dimensions. Maybe fire and ice are fueled with different chromatic aspects of mana and as you deplete some of the colors of your mana casting spells that utilize the others becomes more powerful, so your choice of fire or ice may be influenced by how many spells of the other kind you've already cast. Maybe enemies that are on fire burn for extra damage, but also do additional fire damage in melee, so casting fire spells on someone who's charging you isn't a great idea. Ice spells on the other hand slow down people's movement, so they are good for stopping enemies from coming close to you. On top of that hitting someone who's frozen with fire or someone who's burning with ice might simply cancel out both effects, so alternating too much takes away the secondary effects. And then to top it all off, every spell of a certain type puts a finisher counter on the enemy, and if you kill an enemy with a spell that matches the highest count of elemental counters they have an extra overkill effect that is triggered that can have disadvantages, like for example, if you kill an enemy that was already hit with mostly fire spells with fire it might cause a detonation, damaging the loot the enemy carries, and also dealing damage to nearby things (potentially causing a chain-detonation. or damaging the caster), finishing off an enemy with too much ice might cause them to freeze solid, requiring you to thaw them out before you can loot them.

With a system like that you start having a lot of factors playing against each other, forcing you to make decisions on the fly that are highly influenced by understanding how all the variables work together. Under the right circumstances causing an enemy to explode with too much fire might be a good idea, but not when he's right next to you and you're trying to get a certain item from him. You might find yourself in a situation where you really have to cast a fire spell to keep your mana balanced out, and you have to figure out how to fit it into the fight, despite it not being advantageous at the moment. Stuff like that is interesting to me. It has to have enough variables that the correct course of action isn't easy to determine in the time you have to do it, and as a result you end up relying on experience and intuition to master the system. It's more than just knowing the theory of it, it's mastering the practice as well.


It's very rare to see a system have that kind of depth based on whether or not it counts consumables somewhere along the line.

 

I couldn't agree more. I was feeling really disapointed about a year ago regarding magic because it was far too early and damage was simply damage. Same spells for the most part but they all seemed to basically be flat and inintersting damage/heal tools. NOT ANYMORE.

NOW it is not the case. I discovered the spells are actually different now. lol Gust turned out to be far more useful than I ever dreamed. However not just that spell it is just an example. I haven't bought root yet either. However the damage, heal, and buff spells are now starting to seem very distinct. The sun ray spell does more damage to undead. Heck now I want it. Last year I couldn't think of a single reason to pick up sun magic except for the innate skills (which they have now toned down yet I want sun magic even more now!!!).

So now the question I have isn't how are they going to make magic feel mystical... my biggest question regarding the magic system is trying to figure out how to spend my skill points because EVERY magic tree seems like a whole lot of fun, and I know I'm going to have to make some tough choices because as I get magical armor, staves, etc... I will have to take that into account when I play as well.

Items don't seem like much of an issue, I now see there might be a time I want to swap out a particular item or hat or whatever in favor of something else depending upon what danger is ahead. Fighting a dragon is probably different than fighting a demon, or fighting the various undead is going to be different than dealing with dark elves etc.


*********************************


IN ADDITION: The deck/toolbar mechanic has been changed and I didn't find it much of a problem whereas I found that I was struggling just to keep up with all the stacking before and micromanaging my deck... not so now. Getting more coppies of a skill as we gain skill points is also a neat idea. I really like this skill gain mechanism. The skill accumulation and the skill pool is actually far less intrusive than I ever thought. I was a total skeptic. I honestly thought there was no way they could turn this around, and they stuck to their idea and moved forward. I'm glad they did. I think it will pay off.


*************************************

Starting off as a low level creep learning a new system = cranky:

These negative reviews on steam is nonsense. A lot of MMO style games have mixed reviews even good ones. The fact is, new games are frustraiting at first because people just want to rush right into them.

Nobody likes being the 1st level nerd. starting out getting yoru butt kicked, not knowing how anything works is not the fun part and unfortunately that is the first thing eveybody sees in all these games. I was really frustraited at EA UFC 2 a month ago and thought it was crap, but then I persevered and learned how to do the moves... I thought submissions were IMPOSSIBLE now I'm a submission dude.

(cranky can turn to anger if some stuff doesn't go the right way and angry people complain far more than happy people say thank you)

 

Having a lot of depth and tough choices to the build system is huge, I agree, but the question of how to make magic feel more like magic and not just any number of MMO abilities is still kind of important. I mean, someone was arguing earlier that Tabula Rasa doesn't have a magic system, but from a mechanics standpoint it absolutely had a magic system, it just renamed magic to logos and mana to energy and reagents to nanites. That may be narratively different, but mechanically it's exactly the same. So, there is a distinction between mechanical magic and thematic magic. From what you're describing it sounds like the mechanical side of things is turning out pretty well, but maybe there is still a bit of work to be done on the thematic side.

I like it when mechanics and theme overlap in a magic system in a way by making the mechanics of casting spells require knowledge and experience, which is what magic is also about thematically. Of course it's nearly impossible to design a system that somehow rewards you for the ability to recite esoteric snippets of deep lore, especially since they'd be trivial to look up on the internet and thereby the whole challenge of knowing them would be gone. What I personally really like as a system for making magic more real is the idea of affinity, being that the mystical powers of the universe don't just respond to words and gestures, but to the very nature of your being. Then how you act in the world can have an influence on how powerfully you align with certain elements or forces. You'd have magical academies forming around not just hidden knowledge, but ways of life. Like, maybe a successful fire mage needs to have fire-like qualities, and tend to consume and destroy, be volatile, but also ward off darkness and be at the center of home and community. A water mage might have to be incredibly patient, harbor secrets, unseen treasures and dangers, grant relief with calm, but also be cold and merciless when enraged. That's the sort of thing I would really like to see built into a system somehow, because that's what I would find makes spells and spell schools more than just a list of effects, but an actual system of supernatural forces that relate to the soul.

 

yeah I tend to agree with you in part. The interesting thing about the magic is that every person (though unique in their own right) has all of these qualities from birth. Psychological factors can effect our behavior, and much of those factors are taught or beat into us knowingly or not. Behavior is a good way to judge a person's character, but who knows why a person has a negative view about life? Does a negative view on life reflect a person's inner potential? If not then just being a negative person ought not mean they are well suited for death magic. That would be like judging a person to be guilty of a grievous sin just because he has physical blindness (behavior doesn't give people genetic diseases)... therefore why should behavior grant anybody some physical or observable power? Isn't the power of free will greater than behavior?

That said Behavior cannot be an accurate judge of a person's potential. The potential to choose any path we want lives in all. The freedom to choose what we like doing is greater than having to first conform to a behavior modification in order to get what we want. Majority of the time that behavior modification will change our psyche, and if it changes our soul, then are we ever going to be free to choose what we want or is it a total wash?

So my past choices, behavior, etc, ought to have no effect upon what I want to do today. It also shouldn't change my potential, unless my behavior got me thrown into jail or caused me to lose a limb. Even then we can adapt.

 

It depends on how you view magical power I suppose. If you think of magic as simply applying knowledge then behavior doesn't influence magic. On the other hand, if you think as magic as a living force that chooses its wielder it makes a lot of sense if it doesn't just bend to anyone who mutters some words, but picks champions that have an affinity to it. I think magic tends to make a lot more sense in a world setting if it isn't neutral, because then there is no real difference between magic and science anymore. If it's simply a natural force that can be manipulated through certain processes doing magic is no different than boiling water. On the other hand, if magic is an entity with a will of its own that responds to your inner being it's something else entirely.

 

To chime in.. from the Ultima perspective, there has never been any indication that there is any will behind magic.. BUT.. to compare it to boiling water is over simplification. (I know what you meant, I'm just using it as an extreme example) Boiling water takes no skill at all. Rather, magic does require some manner of innate ability. Something which THE Avatar apparently had but was noticeably absent in the general population. In Serpent Isle, individuals with innate magical ability were identified in their infancy and stolen away to be taught magic in Moonshade. There were other individuals who simply could not wield magic properly and most presumably not at all. To be fair though, we can easily speculate that your common citizen simply had little influence to push them towards exploring the possibility they could use magic.

 

good points. Same could be said about this world. Even though we don't have people casting spells there are a whole lot of people who think that magical stuff happens all the time yet not many truly peruse it either. People can be facinated by astrology, or a song that pops on the radio that seems to be just the right thing at the right time as if god were trying to tell them something... and others do recognize a god or the universe and believe they need to discover the will of god for their lives. However from personal experience and observing many others who do try to discover the will of god for their lives it ends up paralyzing them into fear of making a decision without first "consulting the bones" (to use a term from the movie Willow).

If there is any truth in those mystical powers in our world, then I wonder who is better off? The one who thinks they need to consult the bones to make every decision, or the one who lets their heart guide them?

As Bowen stated there is no evidence that magic chose anybody or even had a will, it was usable by all but few seemed to think it was for them. IF in fact magic did choose people and had a will, then there is the possibility that magic in its fullness has chosen ALL. The freedom to use magic as a person wills, could be the result that magic itself has freely chosen us to be as we are not imposing a will upon us except that the will of magic was to dwell in humanity just as we are. Imagine if we believed that about god.

 

I never said it was usable by all.. quite the contrary. You had to have some natural ability for it.. and in fact now that I think of it that notion is also supported by BotA when it talks about the forming of the Obsidian Cabal. It was formed of those with a natural talent for magic. Not just any Joe commoner who just thought 'wow that magic stuff is neat, think I'll give it a go'.

 

Well, I'm not talking about Ultima magic so much as just what I consider to be interesting concepts for a magical universe. Inside of MMO game worlds it's unfortunately really not possible to have magic in the hands of a talented few, especially in a freeform system like this where mixing some magic into your build is damn near mandatory. The notion of the gifted mage just kind of falls away in shared game worlds where everyone uses magic. That isn't a bad thing, it just eliminates that device for storytelling.

 

True, though for me it remains a minor pet peeve. I really dislike magic feeling reduced to something so common unless it was common to begin with (which isn't really the case here). But yes it's kind of hard to avoid. You have to allow everyone the option. Though I don't necessarily agree it's that mandatory from a mechanics standpoint.. What makes it so is the majority of players who recognize that it's easier to have at least some magic. There's really very little incentive right now NOT to have it or disincentive to have it.

 

Yea, that's true, the breakdown of the skills as is doesn't really give you any good reason to ever play a fully mundane character. Not having a go-to healing ability or basically not being able to access the combo system for example are just pretty serious blind spots in a character with no magic. I've been playing a lot of Darksouls 3 lately, and that game is really interesting in just how many characters people build in it use no magic at all. That's partially down to magic just not being very good in any Darksouls game, while their melee system is the crowning achievement of the whole series, but there is more to it as well, like having to wield a magical focus to cast spells and needing a bunch of stats that have no benefit to a fighter to be good at it. A lot of people just decide to not mess with it at all, and that makes it kind of fun to be in a co-op game as the mage.

 

Wasn't impossible for anybody it is like making a career choice. Some people are great writers, others are great speakers, and some other people like mathmatics. Spending your life as a wizard is a career choice. However that doesn't mean magic wasn't in there lives. Magic was everywhere. The only time magic really had trouble was when the guardian came alone and tried to run everybodies lives and tried to disrupt magic so that all would rely upon him... or whatever. I don't recall the story now.

 

But it wasn't "everywhere" and natural talent did play a role. And like any career choice or skill you either have a certain level of affinity to perform or you don't. Not everyone is cut out for every profession. It has nothing to do with the abundance or lack there of where magic comes from.. but each individuals ability to use it. Otherwise, it would be little more to the commoner than a tool of convenience regardless of profession or skill.

A great writer is a great writer in part because they have a talent for it. A great speaker is a great speaker in part because they have a talent for it. Not everyone has the same talent for everything.

 

Yeah I agree. I was just pondering the universal existance of the magical ether everywhere. Kind of like the force. It is all around us it it eminates from all living things etc etc. I don't know.

However as far as the topic, I think the freedom to gain skill and be your own caster apart from karma or being "chosen" to be a magic user as opposed to being your "chosen" profession is really key. As an avatar we can choose to be anything we want. There's nothing normal about any of us, and nothing should hinder us from the motivation of our heart.

 

I wonder about the potential for RP and magic philosophers.

 

By virtue Bowen, this is a GREAT post. If only it could be so.