I don't understand the poll

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Nick, Aug 10, 2020.

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  1. Chris

    Chris Tech Lord Moderator SOTA Developer Ambassador

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    Guys, this was just to get a ballpark of value of stats from YOU guys to see how well it matched up with my numbers. Obviously, the value depends on the build and a million other things. When I try to balance things, I cannot balance it based on YOUR build. I have to find a value that feels fair for all. I actually had a much longer intro for the poll where I clarified more things but after a lot of feedback, the belief was the less language the better. I'll be updating this for the next poll that will be more widely distributed.

    As for only putting it on Twitter, that is because I was intentionally only trying to reach a limited audience as this was just a test run to see if it would be useful before rolling it out to more people. Obviously that was the right thing to do as many people seemed confused by the shorter language. The mandatory google sign in is to make sure people only took the poll once or at least no more times than they had google accounts.
     
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  2. Chiasma

    Chiasma Bug Hunter

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    Seems like it is a food bonus balance instead of combat balance.

    Most people choose health or focus when the value are much greater than that provided by STR / INT / ADV LVL bonus.

    For example, 10 STR gives 29.3 health. They may choose health bonus instead of STR when the health bonus is much greater and they do not need any melee damage bonus. Same goes for focus and adventure level.

    I only know 1 magic attunement increase magical damage more than 1 INT.

    No big studies on other stats. Draw speed and cast speed are quite complex to be included.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  3. Chris

    Chris Tech Lord Moderator SOTA Developer Ambassador

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    For more clarity as for what this will be used for, when I make a skill or consumable or artifact or blessing, I need to try and figure out the balance for it. So imagine I add 4 new skills, one to each weapon skill trees. I need to be able to come up with values that are appropriate for each tree but also fairly equal in power.

    Most recently I have been dealing with trying to balance some base stats for existing gear and for foods. For food I'm working on moving it to a point system so you have 6 slots for food instead of 2 but foods might take up multiple slots. Big food might take 3 slots and lesser foods might take 1. This is make it so lesser food recipes still have a purpose. To make these feel fairly balanced, I need to be able to make a 1 point food roughly 1/3rd as powerful as a 3 point food. However I also want to diversify the foods a bit so they aren't just all the same stats with different numbers. For example, the easy ones are if you have a 3 point potion that gives 15 strength, a 1 point potion should have around 5 strength. The tougher things is when you have a 3 point food that gives 15 strength, how many points of magic resistance should a 2 point food give? How about a 1 point potion that adds combat health regen? With these values I can have a good starting point for figuring out food values and gear values.
     
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  4. Dulayne

    Dulayne Avatar

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    Temperature dropping. Hopefully now things can remain calm.
     
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  5. Cordelayne

    Cordelayne Avatar

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    [​IMG]
     
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  6. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

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    Like all foods and potions, you MUST take into consideration the DURATION of each - and what that means to individual players.

    A PvP fight can be/more often is - over in a very short time.
    A PvE fight with high level mobs may take quite a long time.

    This is why it is impossible to satisfy both types of players.
     
  7. Lord Tachys al`Fahn

    Lord Tachys al`Fahn Avatar

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    A possibility is having consumables that cannot be eaten/imbibed when flagged for PvP, while having others with similar effects that can be, but are much shorter duration (as well as having the effect removed on death), so you have to rearm yourself in that fashion as well when respawning.
     
  8. Grumpy Krabnevir

    Grumpy Krabnevir Avatar

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    Haven't we punished pvp'ers enough? Do you realize the costs involved with constantly 're-arming' yourself, ESPECIALLY with the new shadow shield potion that costs 8 essences to make, yet can be simply removed by a level 1 Torpid Torment? As it is now, most excursions cost more in regs, potions, and gear loss than is received back in loot.

    I'm not against balancing, but I am against discrimination based upon labels.
     
  9. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

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    There are foods that give 15 strength?
     
  10. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

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    You're right, @Lord Tachys al`Fahn - but making changes that depend on whether or not "flag'd" for PvP to combat and buffs requires completely different parameters for each (PvP/PvE) and Catnip has nowhere near the dev resources for that.

    Which is why it is virtually impossible to code this game for both, given the dev resources.

    @Chris needs to decide which group is more likely to support $$ SotA and make the hard choice.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  11. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

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    "Discrimination" based upon "labels".
    Good grief, @Grumpy Krabnevir - PvE and PvP themselves are "labels" for different types of game-play. Each has vastly different requirements.

    No one is saying one is "better" than the other, but the game-play (in so many ways) IS distinctly different.

    "Balancing" SotA for BOTH is virtually impossible without different parameters for each skill,buff, etc. - without dev's devoted to each "playstyle" (PvE,PvP), and we (Catnip) quite simply does NOT have those dev resources.

    @Chris and Richard have to decide where to go from here.........
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  12. aragorn lancermane

    aragorn lancermane Avatar

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    Pretty much that.

    PvE combat vs PvP combat are 2 different things all together. However, a simple debuff spell that encompasses all buffs where they be one at a time or multiple at a time could solve this and that should open it up to where all the buffs could be tweaked better for its duration.
     
  13. Grumpy Krabnevir

    Grumpy Krabnevir Avatar

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    That's a good point.

    Considering SotA has NEVER catered to pvp or even offered a serious attempt to do so, I would say neither group is more likely, for as you can plainly see, even the pve'ers have mostly left the game. There's less than 800 people a day logging in and only about 10 of those are pvp'ers. So, I think he made his choice already, and this is what we have to show for it.
     
  14. devilcult

    devilcult Avatar

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    Its really just a variable on the potion, IsPvP, true or false. I dont think an astronomical amount of cash need to be dropped in this 15 minute work at top thing. But i also agree with grumpy, potions should be the same for everyone and thing like torpid torment shouldnt dispel potion. Potion should be thinked to not be so strong that it require a dispel from a user to be able to pass trought. Its just a matter of design. You can take as example all other potion that did the same and got nerfed. Unicorn, poisons, aether, etc. Shadow is next it seem ;p
     
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  15. Grumpy Krabnevir

    Grumpy Krabnevir Avatar

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    Yes, but only one of those labels is routinely selected for denigration, de-humanization, and nerfing. How many posts have we seen just in the past 3 days of people wanting to exclude pvp from the game altogether. See how easy it is to eliminate people/customers when you put a label on it and then tell everyone that anyone with that label is a bad person. Do we need to repeat history forever?

    And, to an earlier post, someone wanted to further delineate the label by adding 'griefer'. Here again, that's highly subjective. If someone who normally pve's goes into the weekly pvp fishing zone to fish and a pvp'er comes in and attacks and kills that person repeatedly because that's the whole purpose of the zone, is that considered griefing? Toxidity is in the eye of the beholder, that's why we can't get along.
     
  16. Net

    Net Avatar

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    I think that does not need to be the case. There are games where it is not so easy to distinguish player opponent from computer opponent. If the NPCs at the very least used the same system as players, we would not have such a huge gap between PvE and PvP builds. I think it is just wrong to have NPCs, especially humanoid NPCs, behave differently than players... I do not think it will change at this point of development, but the two game styles can (and imho should) be very similar.
    Having PvP (or PvE) specific skills and restrictions is weird, combat should be combat.
     
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  17. Tiina Onir

    Tiina Onir Avatar

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    I see no reason do do this. It shouldn't be technically difficult, but I'm just not sure what limiting gear based on your PvP flag is benifical in either direction. If a more powerful shorter duration potion is better for PvEers, let them use it. If the opposite is better for PvPers, let them use it. (And yes, I choose the opposite way it was presented to make the point)

    There are numerous problems with this survey:
    1. Accidental response bias - The reality is, what we think we would favor, and what we actually do are often not the same. We see this in real-world surveys, too, and it's hard to account for.
    2. Variation on Build - While I saw this survey when you posted it, I didn't participate because the answer to every question is "it depends on which character I'm making gear for." I even if I was sure what the answer was for any given build I use, I'd have to answer the survey at least three different times.
    3. Variation Based on Item - I hadn't thought about this at first, but someone (I think it was @devilcult) pointed out that it would matter one what pieces of gear this stuff was on. Something that can only be put on the gemmed chest-piece has more value then something that appears every piece of armor.
    It seems to be the only way to collect reliable information on this is to actually look at what options people are choosing and ignoring when enchanting/master-working/eating/etc. The information is what people are doing not what they say they are doing.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
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  18. Net

    Net Avatar

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    My issue is, that I do not really understand the combat math so a lot of the values I have to guess about their meaning, the adventurer level, the damage avoidance, the attunement, the magic resistance... I am not really sure how those things work, the numbers I see in combat are way too random for me to know what a change of few points one way or another does. Even when it comes to the base stats I know they improve my results somewhat but I am not sure by how much.
     
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  19. Tiina Onir

    Tiina Onir Avatar

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    That's a good point too. I'd like to see the game do a better job telling us how our choices affect our character. At least some of that is presented to us in via LUA add-ons though.
     
  20. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

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    Sorry to the OP that this thread has gone so far off-topic, but once it did I felt the need to respond.
    I suspect that it will be locked soon because of this, and I apologize @Nick

    Please cite examples of this, @Net
     
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