Incorporation of the Bank of Tantalus and New Britannian Stock Exchange

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Jatvardur, Jun 26, 2015.

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  1. Poor game design

    Poor game design Avatar

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    I didn't read every post in this thread, no. But based on your response I feel I got the jist of it fine. I'm actually supporting the idea, I just have a very particular notion about how this should work (how I'd do it).

    I'm not trying to get into semantics about this. But ponzi schemes don't really play the rules. Bernie Madoff had all kinds of paper work and I'm saying this purely on memory but I'm pretty sure he was incorporated false too! :)

    I think you first have to have trust and I see no reason to trust a system that is backed up by anonymous players with multiple characters. I would however consider putting my trust into people I know are pillars of the community and have a good history of being around to pay their debts.

    When I say the whole thing goes bust, I mean the WHOLE THING, like your system of finance. I completely understand what you're saying, it's just not what I'm interested in.

    Ok, here's what I think you're missing. IRL there are states and governments and businesses that don't exist in the ether.

    In SOTA, we don't have any of those things. I'm not trying to lessen the value of what some people are building, I'm just saying that suppose Blake wins the lottery and decided to start a huge humanitarian project that makes him forget all about SOTA. And everything Blake built is essentially destroyed. Where's the redundancy? What backs up Blake's contribution to all this? (This is the best case scenario)

    And according to your model, there is none. What I was suggesting is a way to ensure that there was some financial redundancy from other trusted sources. And that's what REAL LIFE does. Businesses aren't just born into the world, and governments don't just make regulations that everyone follows, and stock markets aren't drawn up on cocktail napkins. This stuff is slightly more complex than that, and it requires stability and trust that frankly you guys haven't thought about.

    I was trying to be friendly and nice about a possible solution. I think if you read my post over again you'll see that (maybe). But good god man, the oversimplification of something as complex as a stock market in the quote above is really amazing.

    Good luck!

    Actually banking (IRL) has less to do with keeping it safe and a lot more to do with the "promise" to pay people interest for the temporary ability to reinvest that same money somewhere else...like local businesses. This actually seems like a much better model than a "Stock Market" for MMO crafters, to me anyway. Because what start up businesses really need is cash, and who's going to give them cash for a piece of worthless unthrustworthy paper that's not insured or backed up by anything?

    Not me. (AND I'M IN FAVOR OF YOUR IDEA!)
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2015
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  2. Jatvardur

    Jatvardur Avatar

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    ''Stability and trust "you guys haven't thought about"?''

    I should really do a word count on the number of times I've mentioned 'trust'. Obviously having worked in investments means naught....


    Dunning-kruger again.
     
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  3. Spoon

    Spoon Avatar

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    You are arguing from ignorance here @Baron Drocis Fondorlatos
    All of your objections and doomsaying has already been talked, discussed and prepared processes for. If you had read the old topics refered to that should have been clear.

    If you are not even willing to learn what the basic premise is about then why do you still feel entitled to act like you can offer valid criticism for it ?

    If there is a known quantity of shares and a known current lists of who holds those shares then please tell me how a Ponzi scheme can get started?
    And if you need registered and public receipt of transaction of shares where both parties hold a copy, then how could you get away with "printing extra"?

    How you build trust is not starting by relying on some pillar of the community. That isn't trust based on the system that is faith. It is like saying that you trust celebrity endorsement. If paxlair would give out such guarantees that you are talking about then that would really invite the scammers. Who needs to run a good investment if some dupe will cover the costs regardless? That would break them.

    So that is not how to build trust not a good system. Instead you build system concepts, then try to think about ways to exploit it, rebuild, exploit, rebuild, exploit etc.

    Then you start creating trust with a transparent system where the risks and fail safes to mitigate risks are thoroughly explained and discussed. Like contingency plans for what happens when someone inevitably leaves.
    You can't have such trust if the risks are unknown and they rely on faith in people.

    Also please note that I'm not part of this project. I do not have any stakes in it. But before offering my input I at least had the courtesy to read up on what they had already discussed and covered.
     
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  4. E n v y

    E n v y Avatar

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    It's going to be great.
     
  5. Poor game design

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    I'll just agree to disagree. Good day.
     
  6. Jatvardur

    Jatvardur Avatar

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    In R24 I decorated a Keep lot in Vanguard as a stock exchange. Be sure to check it out (note it is a work in progress):

    [​IMG]


    The stock exchange is the keep in the distance:

    [​IMG]


    See more:
    Facebook pics.​
     
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  7. Gregoire Visaard

    Gregoire Visaard Avatar

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    Hey, Jat

    How goes life my friend.

    I came across your thread here and was wondering how you have been doing with it's development since your last post here in late November. I remember when you and I first talked a little bit about starting a stock exchange way back when. Nice to see you have continued on with it's development.

    If there is anything I can do to assist, or maybe kick around some ideas with you I am up for it. I wish I had a clearer picture of the development and progress as well as your end goals?
    . Maybe I could lean in and be useful. Not sure what the direction of Blackstone Bluff is now days? Maybe you have a link, I know you do, I just can't find it.

    Is Blake still around some?

    One idea I had was for some sort of real estate investment market.
    Say my company Sea Bear Properties offers a way for others to buy into the company by purchasing shares that provide a dividend each month or quarter. That might get enough extra money flowing into the company to allow for purchase of lots and houses for resale or rental to other players that I might not have been able to make. Maybe throw in some amenities to make them attractive, even to established players. Hmmm...


    I am going to keep working on it as the game develops and we go live.

    I am not sure if your goals are to make real money or just in game RP type thing?

    I do see a possibility of gathering other players (real money/in game gold) together and buying a pot, deeding it and placing houses on it for rent. I am contemplating doing that with a smaller size pot I own. Currently have about 50 lot deeds total and at least that many homes. A big unknown is the tax rates on lots? Once that goes into effect. I can start crunching numbers and getting to a realistic mind frame.
     
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  8. Jatvardur

    Jatvardur Avatar

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    Thanks for the continued interest.

    You are welcome to get involved. Part of the 'problem' is that the market can't really run until the game is up and running. People can establish their own trading groups and form 'companies': that is doable now. If you have a group of people that would like to form a company then there is something we could develop there.

    In terms of running the exchange I think that kinda needs to wait for launch. Some tests can be run, plus a discussion of mechanisms but much of that has been done. A full-scale test could be nice, but not strictly necessary.

    Most of the relevant information is in the lead post. Other ideas that I've sketched out exist here:

    http://rsfie.com/
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/r12-testing-books-as-contracts.16732/

    The end goal would be a functioning and healthy stock market.

    Blake is alive and we are in contact but I wouldn't bank on him returning to SotA. I don't want to put words in his mouth either, and whether he returns or not is purely up to him.

    Blackstone Bluff is no longer going (as I understand it).

    Definitely sounds cool, and fits in with what I'm discussing above. Blake and I discussed the real estate market at length, and is still of interest.

    I know Envy also has a large interest in the real estate market. He has an interesting project over at SotA Suburbia.


    If we are talking about the stock market then it is strictly RP / in-game gold / in-game items. There is a good reason for this that anyone who is running an exchange, or considering to run an exchange, should know. It isn't anything to do with tax, in any way, as one person guessed. I shall leave it as mystery for now because it is a good differentiator between those who really know their stuff and those who don't (I'm not making any connection to do with the knowledge of tactics or strategies of trading either).

    If you are talking about (re)selling sota items for money then that's fair game while Portalarium support it.

    Yep. There is scope for that.
     
  9. StrangerDiamond

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    A stock exchange with a statue of the angel of death, and a ... torture table ? That sure does alot to settle conspiracy theories, lol :p
     
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  10. Jatvardur

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    That's a printing press. :p We support the acquisition of knowledge and the unhindered publishing of information. ;-)

    Although I appreciate that reading can be torturous for some. :-(
     
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  11. StrangerDiamond

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    Well it can be USED as a printing press, rofl... just as physical gold can be used to support a paper money economy ? :D
     
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  12. Jatvardur

    Jatvardur Avatar

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    You sound like an avid torturer. Perhaps this is something you'd like to share?

    I can't guarantee that I'll find you a literate audience but I can at least get your expertise published. :)
     
  13. StrangerDiamond

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    I'll need an ECG connected to that tesla tower, then I can turn that printing press in a brainwashing machine... just print enough numbers and then repeat a lie a thousand times until its truth !

    THERE ARE 4 LIGHTS !!!!

    *cough* *looks a bit dazled*

    Then, when you least expect it ! *PRINT ON THE FOREHEAD OR ON THE RIGHT HAND*

    Poof, perfect BMC "fellowship" member.
     
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  14. StrangerDiamond

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