Let's talk about how streaming effects our game.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Time Lord, Sep 3, 2021.

  1. Zeek Latreck

    Zeek Latreck Avatar

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    this is what I would say on this part here if you want stuff like that then people should throw money at their content creators good video editing software cost money and the free stuff is garbage so ill say this sorry @Atos and @Elgarion or anyone else stop donating to the dev streams if your monthly contribution via game or what you pay in cotos is not enough well... that a problem lol donate to the Streamer you like instead so one they stick with streaming the game and can afford software or new equipment to make for better content I would love to make better videos for you all and cover array of content but a few things here I wouldn't get enough views or subs on YouTube with shroud to enable me to start making money off of it to get better software so that money would have to come from somewhere else preferably my stream but the max viewers I have ever achieved or seen anyone else achieve is 30 and they don't really donate much because they spend that money on on the shroud of the avatar monthly streams. not trying to be mean and frankly do whatever you like with your money it is yours but people who have tried to make content for shroud in the past or in going into the future cannot be expected to foot the bill themselves and most people go into content creation to try and make either more income or as a career.
     
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  2. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

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    Thank you for your comments :) it's always great to see things through the eyes of others! I'm not one that will ever wish to make money of any kind, I'm mostly aiming at the fun within the art which could be possibly achieved.

    Apex Legends...

    I think it's sort of obvious that EA/Origins dumped allot of $ into streamers pockets to have shot up so quickly just to have also fallen so quickly.

    I think one of the leading reasons sota reviews and videos aren't so entertaining and get lousy reviews is that almost every video we have can't get past the inital content and get bogged down when explaining things, without ever getting to the content which is truly spectacular in our game.

    I also think that this suggestion is the best I've thus far seen for visiting streamer/reviewers...
    That's a great suggestion :)!
    ~TL~

     
  3. Zeek Latreck

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  4. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

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    Thanks for the invitation @Zeek Latreck and I did take you up on that invite.

    • I know you think our sota deco is one of our finest things in our game.
    • I know you blame our community manager for how many views our current streaming "provides you with".
    • I know you like background music and like making background music.
    You made allot of references to @Coswald_Dirthmire 's streaming arts, which do feature allot of action packed content.
    I am one of his 41 subscribers...


    But Zeek, your stream had nothing visual that could keep my attention, though I did watch, as I've watched many streams of an Avatar standing still in the grass. I'm usually watching such a stream for development chat value, just to know a bit of what's going on in the current or future builds.

    In some streams, it seems much like an invitation into a ponzi scheme to share 10-50 viewers (which are very inflated numbers) or a small guild meeting. Give money and help build the temple of <insert streamer name here>.

    I hear when you are saying that you need money, I hear you when you say the other streamers need money, so I'm sorry, I'm sort of being just as selfish as you are. I like people sending me money, but they already send me enough and I'm far to busy to beg for it when I don't really needed any more of it. Lucky me right? But that came from a life time's work so I don't share it very easily, though I have in the past donated over $1000.00 to the Bear Tavern and I did outright buy another guild an underground POT still seen on the map today called "The Caverns Undernieth" because of their early great library work, Echoes from the Caverns, their help with The New Britannia Theater Troup and other "sota" community building activities.

    I've been alive a very long time and within that time I've experienced life through engaging in many different types of media from public radio talk show side kick to music reporter to play billing and $ suporter in some indi-film companies.

    Here's an indi film I helped finance in a small amount and in part sought out financing for:



    I show you this because it's a great demonstration of how camera angles and framing make the difference between an information film with a poem in it vs a film that draws out and engages human feelings of emotions, no matter what emotions the target may be.

    Sota videos leave me feeling like I just ate a technical manual because they are full of technical content being conveyed and not the beauty of the game or it's exciting content. It's important to show the goal and then allow the seeker to find out how to reach that goal, which then falls back to the beginning before the story fills in the blank between beginning and the goal.

    Our game is unique and has many tech things to learn within our card combat and many other aspects of the game. It's that technical stuff that causes new viewers to dislike what they see and thus not value our game enough to engage in it. The goal is not seen by these viewers. They can't see that part in the game as many long time players do, where the cards melt into the background as their eyes can then consentrate their focus on the action they are engaging in, refering to their cards, but not singley focused on them. They can see the scene, whereas the newby or the potential new player looking for a game, their focus is on the cards which seem very unfamiliar and therefore uncomfortable and thereby unapealing.

    As this has to do with streaming and not post production editing of an earlier stream...
    Crew served gaming has been a part of online gaming for well over a decade now, this is simple programing, whether or not our developers chose to accomidate it or not is entirely up to them, but that does not make anything I'm presenting here any less possible or any less needed in order for sota to be seen as unique.

    There are a herd of streamers just as there was once a herd of radio shows, and this is like being that first salesman to present television as something better. Like the indians who saw the Spanish but didn't see the boats, 100 views or 100 subscribers does not point to gods, it only points to the need of getting off the shoreline to begin investigating more about boats.

    It's never easy to force an evolutionary change, The future is coming with more options and the first to offer those new options becomes who's game becomes most talked about for free.

    Personality is only the echoes of radio magic and not the end all be all of live streaming by a man standing watching grass grow while talking to himself. If any streamer is doing this, you're doing radio, because what you're doing visually is nothing more than acting as wall paper. If you're going to do radio, then do radio. But even standing watching the grass grow isn't good radio.


    Do you get my meaning o_O?

    We need to see more because there is more in our streaming because it's not radio. The action on the screen needs to be seen more because there is more than the cards to watch play. Our streamer's feet need to move and we need to see play without looking through the lens clogged up by a heads-up display.

    But you can still keep asking for money for so few views, but somehow I don't think you'll ever get it or deserve it.

    [​IMG]

    Eating tech manuals is great when you want to get from point A to point B, but they're not keeping attention span beyond having dispensed their information, or been the most inviting welcome mat to entice players into our game. They are great for retention, but not the art of feeling and feeling is what causes pocketbooks to open or emotional time to be spent in order to love.

    Whenever we describe any video game, it's always;

    • I love that game
    • I hate that game
    • I feel like playing
    • I don't feel like playing
    All of these are emotions, not technical descriptions.

    Do you get my meaning o_O?
    ~Time Lord~
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2021
  5. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

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    The Set...

    The set is very important when it comes to visual presentation, which is much different than just standing in a random area with the grass blowing round the showcased avatar's representation. When there's nothing interesting there, then it becomes not important at all to have rendered the representation. In other words, standing around watching the grass grow is not compelling visual content to help captivate the audience.

    This is a set and what a set looks like...
    [​IMG]
    It's a wide shot set where the central avatar who is doing nothing truly special can have speciality all around him, which can thus help carry an otherwise not so interesting action performance of TimeLord exicuting a heavy hopak dance. The only other thing that needs to be done here, is to have the gargen filled in with plants and the TimeLord chr moved further to the center of the presentation isle that leads to the building. But that scene within this set cannot be achieved through current sota camera abilities. With each step the TimeLord takes forward, more and more of the set's edges are lost which throws off the framing of the set. Shot live or not makes no difference.

    [​IMG]

    This is a common backdrop shot which brings the viewer's attention to the avatar which emphasizes the avatar, expands the feeling of an expansive world through taking away from the confinement of any particular place, culminating a feeling of the avatar as an individual shouting out his presence to that larger world...
    [​IMG]

    So, it doesn't bother me when those who are using the tech (which is nothing more than a stationary video camera would be) tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about or how it's so un-needed to include such presentation style into "their streaming", but please do remember those same comments the next time you buy a ticket to the next hit movie blockbuster or live TV standup performance that catches your fancy to tune into.

    Our game is all about empowering the individual to create their own content, so such additions to that empowerment should be following that natural path. Presentation to our player made content then becomes an importance, as we continue into our conversationalist game play, as they are no more and no less than supporting actors who never forget their lines.

    It truly does not bother me at all when I see so many blind to what they see and wish to see everyday due to and through cinema techniques which are so commonly watched almost each and every day.

    You may have a fantastic stream with great content, yet failing to include some simple cinema techniques devalues your good efforts from the better they could be.

    Now I'm preparing to enter into another very large set build, much larger than I've ever built before, not for money, but for fun :D!
    ~Time Lord~:)
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2021
  6. Superbitsandbob

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    There really are a lot of reasons in this thread as to why the game is not getting the streamers or views it deserves and none of it seems to be the game itself.

    I think when you reach a point where you suggest this game needs a different type or style of how videos are shot or framed or edited then maybe you have gone beyond the reality of where you think the game is or how good it is. Other MMO's do very well just from the normal or the mundane or whatever you want to call it.

    Creative or artsy presentation, framing or camera techniques are not going bring in or keep viewers, assuming you are looking for a large number that will push the game to a wider audience. The most popular gaming videos generally contain information about game mechanics or how to do X or kill Y in the most efficient manner. The fact that SOTA's videos of a similar type have such low views is not down to how they are shot or framed.

    The way a game like this gets more traction is to have a number of interesting encounters that are finished, give good rewards for your time and have replayability. You then get someone with clout, pay them probably, to showcase this stuff. Either that or you are lucky enough to have a streaming celeb who really likes the game. In general, gamers want to watch gameplay and learn how to do things, or just listen to a streamer like Asmongold.

    The very same people who's videos are an apparent problem, like TheLazyPeon for example, are the very people who get your game noticed. Get a substantial amount of finished, relatively bug free interesting content and go to them and say get your laughing gear around that.
     
  7. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

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    "Let's talk about how streaming effects our game".
    I don't recal the title of this thread being only these goals in mercenary gamesmanship you mention. I'm not trying to please a comercial market, I'm trying to have a product of my play, please me in an artful way. Whatever mercenary goal you or others may have, is not not my own.




    Within your streaming game there's much similarity in building a following and building a mailing list for postal distributions. When we open our YouTube search, it's very much like looking through what's called in the USA as "junk mail", with each piece of that mail wanting to be seen, help draw in the customer who will hopefully like the video they see and therefore subscribe. It's a business proposition, nothing more. Something to subsidise the equipment or as with TheLazyPeon guy, a way to earn a living. He is looking for work you know and subsidising his income through other ways now. I personally think that streaming review market is becoming a bit saturated in western streamers, but I don't truly know, I can only judge by numbers of views.

    :rolleyes: But again here, your goals and my own goals are likely extremely different :)

    Hire a mercenary, I guess that's the answer you seek to enhance your sota gaming enjoyment? Yes/No?
    You seem to be driven by raw data in your hungers and through your streams, which is different than my own hungers in creative fun.

    This may be true or not, but it seems you want some thunbs up (aka likes) on your videos, with a chance to offer more videos which your viewers could then "hit that thumbs up like button" again for seeing. "All that is well and good", but I am after art because I like it, and if anyone else likes it, that's OK too.

    Do you decorate your home very often here in sota, or does it generally stay the same? I ask because my own are lucky when their styles last a month or even a week. I don't do that for subscriptions or even recognition, as I never enter them in any screenshot contest. I just build them for the art and creating the set which then guides the many other facets within the entire creative plan. I play in art to help bring my individual vision to life.

    Do you think Van Gogh did it for likes, thumbs up or subscriptions?
    [​IMG]
    A similar setting without the foreground...
    [​IMG]

    I won't bother getting into film blocking, as it's just another method to make video or films provide more impact through the surroundings and action in a dance with the camera.
    Never be freightened by change, because change will always come none the less, whether anyone likes it or not.
    The guy that's not satisfied with making average home videos as self entertainment~Time Lord~:)


     
  8. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

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  9. vulcanjedi

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    I have seen streamers with beautifully decorated properties and awesome visuals and still not have as much of a following as others.
    Personally I'm watching a stream because of the streamer. Or to support the cause of a streamer.
    I think the viewership of streams is as different as the playstyles of the players.
    Personally I stream for a charity and don't worry who is watching or not. And this community shows up when they can :)
     
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  10. Superbitsandbob

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    What you call mercenary I call playing the game to educate and entertain. I am not sure why what you want to do you call art or whatever and something someone else is doing is mercenary. It is still valid to how "streaming effects our game". I imagine a lot of work goes into these mercenary videos and the creators consider it their art or creative process. It's worth remembering these people started from almost nothing and what they have done has appealed to people and it has grown.

    If all you are interested in is turning streaming into art then fine. I am pretty sure for most gaming companies (maybe Port is different in this but unlikely), streaming is a way to generate exposure, like it or not. For most viewers, it is the education of how to play the game or to interact with the streamer.

    I guess when you are so invested in something it's hard to see everything else as anything other than in a negative light.
     
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  11. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

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    Whatever do you mean a negitive light? Revenue isn't ugly, it's what many need because streaming costs money in many ways.
    And what do you see as being competitive in this thread? There seems no threat or anything to compete for here.

    "Let's talk about how streaming effects our game" in no way excludes your views any more than it expludes those of my own. My views and topics are no less valid than your own and your views and topics are no less valid than mine are within that parameter.

    Some streamers don't like talking about camera angle or anything other than the way they present their own productions, that's what I'm gathering about the comments here and I'm totally fine with the views of others but with some views I differ. Differing or disagreeing is what makes us individuals so I expect that don't you?

    Destination Absurdity?
    Should anyone call the police on such fool people who wish to use or even propose to ever use any of this framing or camera technique witchery?
    Is that what you're driving at because that just sounds... <fill in the blank with anything you like here because I don't mean to insult you, that would never be my purpose in any of this>.
    Please don't feel in any way threatened, there's no need to attack, but you can if you'd like because these are nothing but words from the film industry.

    Look at those, they all revolve around money. There's no shame in it, nothing to get upset about. If I don't need money but that's not somehow evil or a threat somehow, is it?

    Let me rip off some preposterous presuptions and statements in return for yours so maybe we can make some headway in our thread here...

    • Is speaking about camera angle evil and shouldn't be spoken of, is that it?
    • Are there any other terms that are off limits when talking about video presentation?
    • Because these terms and techniques don't fit into your own does that somehow threaten the foundations of video presentation in any of it's forms which includes streaming?

    What are the parameters in continuing this thread so these creative or artsy presentation, framing or camera technique things don't offend you so much?

    Warning, explicit language...




    Watch those cameras with Ninja... he uses them allot!
    and please, I'm not trolling you or attacking you or the way you want to stream, these are just industry level streamers and you can see all the technique shots they use.
    Yes they have personallity+ but what's happening in the view causes impact, that may or may not upset you, I don't know, but I don't think it's any attack on anyone here.
    These are some of the highest paid mercenaries there are, making millions of real USD with no shame in it what so ever and no shame needed or intended.
    ~Time Lord~
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  12. vulcanjedi

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    You are taking a deep dive into the technicalities of creation and marketing and it seems these are things very few of us would think about.

    There was one of the most popular streamers who used a game view that was maxxed zoom out and spend half the time on a control point the other crafting high end gear for viewers. Artistically it was not great or that entertaining to watch BUT the viewers were always there.

    I think all of us want the same thing. To keep playing the game. And worry about dwindling numbers. And know that more players eventually means a better game.

    But I don't think there is a wrong way to play it :) even if streaming. I do agree there might be better ways to do it but that would only work for some people.

    vj
     
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  13. Superbitsandbob

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    I think you have gone off on a bit of a tangent.

    I enjoy pretty much everything to do with video direction, editing, composition etc. I never said this stuff was taboo or it wasn't for me or offended me at all.

    All I am saying is that whatever way you attack it, it should have some positive benefit to the game, preferably in a financial sense (unless you are only concerned about what you create and not the health of the game you are streaming in general). An "effect of streaming" on the game should have, just imo, a tangible benefit for the game.

    I just don't think that all the fancy camera work in the world is going to positively impact SOTA in the way that streaming generally does for a game. Just my opinion though. If Ninja played it, much as I hate his content, sure. That wouldn't be because of how he uses a camera though. I don't for one minute think Ninja gives a toss about the health of the games he is playing but he doesn't need to as millions will get to see the game regardless.

    I guess at this point we are talking at cross purposes. You are interested in the creative in your video presentation. I think streaming needs to be used as a tool to attract new players and investment via getting one of these so called mercenaries to showcase finished, interesting content.

    Maybe I have misunderstood but it feels as though, reading the thread, you think that the reason for SOTA's lacklustre views is to do with streamers not being creative enough in their presentation or type of content? And you think that if more care was given to such things the streamers would get more views? You also don't think the game or developers are at any real fault for where the game is amongst the content creation community? Just trying to get a sense of where you are coming from.
     
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  14. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

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    I agree and I'm deep diving my head into the deepest places I can find,
    which may not always work out so well for me, but it's nice to take a look...
    [​IMG]
    It's not always easy to know where anyone is coming from when looking in extremely different directions at the same subject.

    The "possibly" fixable problems I think that technique and tech could help within the game reviews sota gets;




      • It take a long time for any game review to get into and around heavy combat areas which have eye apeal.
      • Our quests are great, not perfect yet are one of our game's strong points. They may not be strong points when compared with other games, but are still our own game's strong points.
      • Our Player Made Quests are improving due to our game's accomidations made and things made so those can be made. I think that's one of our strong points.
      • Our player made dungeons are a part of that empowerment of the player to design their own customized content. I think that's one of our strong points.
      • Whenever a stream has the streamer in combat, the combat heads-up destracts in almost every way from the beauty that is there, along with the beauty the action is making on it's own.
      • Whenever the streamer is standing in one place discussing things, I think our backdrops matter and I think camera blocking and movement need to be able to do "just as in Ninja's self interview" I think the camera "in game" needs to have the ability to perform those very same actions, which are extemely similar to many of the takes in City Slickers, where Billy Crystal uses close ups and extreme close ups. Additionally the camera views need to wonder around the Avatar, which in many ways addresses the philosophy of Richard Garriott, "you are the Avatar" and not the person behind the computer keys. What Lord British had said within that simple statement, echoes throughout human history as being within our nature to do, which can be seen currently in the "happy houses of ancestors" here in Asia, all the way back to the times of the Romans who created those same types of family representations to remember them through.
    My own personal goals with and within all of this,
    • To take one continuous shot of the central character avatar in whatever that avatar is engaged in, from the perspective of that avatar without the guy at the keyboard, without his heads-up display. I want to zoom from the action to his eyes and back out to circle the action.
    Currently that can't be done live.
    Even when not shot live, it can't be shot without cuts.
    Editing heavily bring us back to allot of shooting time involved.
    Our backdrops are great for such videos, even to the point of causing Chris not to remain any any POT too long so as not to give advantage to any POT competition.

    I have some friends right now that are making tremendous inki content for our conversationalists (one of those good things about our game I mentioned). All a conversationalist is, is a supporting actor who never forgets their lines. That one continuous shot I mention in my goals, that "almost" could be done with the avatar moving from begining to end of that player made quest content, yet currently, most of that footage would feature the avatar's backside facing the camera, which is the same problem I seek to aviod seeing in a combat stream.

    Our butt is to the camera and there's no way to close-up to our faces, which is also impossible to shoot when the avatar is in motion.
    Those are some of my pet peeves about it.

    Thanks for staying with that @Superbitsandbob :)
    I'm building quest movie sets.
    ~Time Lord~

    PS: This shot of our avatars in almost every game review video, even in the negitive ones, is accompanied by positive comments for a reason, which is enhanced through seeing the avatar's front facing view...
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
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  15. Elwyn

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    It's also probably harder to stream *from* an internet cafe, since usually people are expected to talk while streaming.
    spoiler: they probably were, the same should be true of streamers that regularly have raffles and stream games like marbles, some people are there more for the loot than for the game being streamed
    The problem is, that means you now have to make it worth the time for two people to do the stream, and you also have to cross-link two video sources that might be nowhere near each other. That might work if you already have enough of an audience to have a decent income, but most of us are just doing it to share our time with viewers.

    Also, I know I'd have better camera views if I had a camera control that was separate from the movement direction. I do it all the time when I play FFXI, but that's because it was designed to use controllers, so the second stick moves the camera. In SotA it's hard to even get a good look at your own character's face even when standing still, because it keeps pointing you in the direction of movement, which is your back to the camera. I can't even peek to the sides while running, I have to switch movement fingers to compensate for turning the camera.
    I do try to "gently" mention it from time to time in certain corners of the internet in "suggest an MMO" kind of threads, and often one of those anti-fans shows up soon and blathers all their usual crap. It's happening less lately, and in the past week someone even replied to one of them that the game has gotten a lot better lately.
    Some people grew up with it, mostly GenX and early millennials. UO is more recent than most of Ultima, so those who remember UO would be a bit younger. Zoomers (Generation Z) have little experience with either classic Ultima or UO. And they're just now reaching college age. Sure, it would be great if we had an "In the Air Tonight" moment where someone randomly finds us and it goes viral, but that would be a lottery win.
     
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  16. Time Lord

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    In my search for facial intencity or the close-up and extreme close-up streaming shots, one of the techniques I've noticed some of the top game streamers use is to use their own camera that films themselves do those types shots on their actual face which does seem to work quite well.
    ~Time Lord~
     
  17. macnlos

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    Careful. I could sit here and explain how all the white knights will say anything to save face... But here is what I like to focus on. Here, without interpretation is how I watch/monitor/judge this. Is the hordes of angry people growing? Is the group of happy growing? And the answer there are more and more people leaving than coming. I'm not going to quote all the names of those who have. People who were in love with this game.

    I watched about 10m of whatever Chris was doing on stream on Saturday. In a moment of unusual clarity he was talking about economy and said regardless of what they do to tend to the economy it is very difficult without enough players. Even Chris understands the predicament they are in.
     
  18. Barugon

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    You actually don't know that. The only people who have a real clue about the playerbase are the people that work at catnip.
     
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  19. necronut

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    Can we get a Part 2?
     
  20. macnlos

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    Are you sure about that? Do you have some idea that it would be better?
     
    Vega3 and necronut like this.