Light Armor speed and halving buffs in fight

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by Pounce, Jun 4, 2018.

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  1. Pounce

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    Given speed is an BIG thing with light armor but 50% in fight....
    Why not move it out and replace it with another buff.

    Where is the point in having one of THE defining buffs in an armor tree if it is cut 50% as soon you fight, or using light armor then.

    Heavy armor is about resisting damage, light armor about mobility, but with that reduced significant the whole point of light armor becomes mood.

    So remove sprint and replace it with something meaningfull.

    Right now going solo means wearing heavy armor, that splits the population into heavy armor able to solo, light armor forced into groups.
     
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  2. Lars vonDrachental

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    @Pounce
    Actually I see it some kind of different. To me heavy armor is in general more about weapon skills and light armor is about using magic. Even if some heavier armor might be reasonable to my avatar…as I’m normally not moving that much in a fight…I stay with cloth armor simply because in heavier armor I would have to cull many of my magic skills.
     
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  3. nonaware

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    there are so many sides and perspectives to the various armor types in this game that it is imo hard to have a public conversation about it and achieve anything with it.

    some use heavy for the resist, avoidance, skills, strength, ect

    some use light for the move speed, attack speed, skills?, and less fizzle.

    some mix heavy chest for the resist avoidance skills ect while mixing in light to reduce fizzle.

    has anyone seen people mix a light chest with heavy armor btw? I could be wrong but that dosnt seem like a viable build.
     
  4. kaeshiva

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    While the speed change is certainly an issue for light armor wearers, its just as big of a problem for heavy armor wearers who are able to utilise speed modifiying items/stances/buffs. Heavy armor wearers were slower to begin with, lacking the sprint skill and usually having fizzle rates too high to consistently cast dash, if using heavy armor and a weapon. So while I agree wholeheartedly with the statement that 'this speed debuff thing' is a poorly thought out change, or "nerf", I don't agree with the assessment of the impact on 'light vs. heavy' armor wearers or soloability. I think its probably more likely that we'll see more people switch to heavy armor as the benefits of light armor are now diminished.

    For me, the light/heavy choice has almost always put me somewhere in the middle.

    This is not an exhaustive list, but generally speaking:

    Light Armor Benefits:
    Active dodge skill
    Armor move speed bonus
    Acrobatics (minor dodge increase)
    Flurry (minor attack speed increase, glyph speed bonus with specialization)
    Escape (aggro dropper)
    Less Fizzle
    Int/Dex as the masterwork stat for cloth/leather
    Significantly more aesthetic options
    Material bonuses for spellcrit, weaponcrit


    Heavy Armor Benefits:
    Higher base resist, max resist, and avoidance
    Passive skill upping max resist
    Passive skill upping strength
    Active buff adding strength
    Active avoidance buff (glancing blow) superior to the light armor equivalent
    Passive skill granting stun resistance
    Taunt capability
    Ally protection cabability
    Stun removal (Knights Grace)
    Body Slam (active stun ability)
    Str as the masterwork stat
    Material bonuses for weapon damage, or hp/focus increases

    For me, I've always been in the middle. And that's one of the beautiful things about Sota and its skill/armoring system. I've always favored wearing a couple pieces of heavy (including the chest) to get, what is in my opinion, a far superior skill tree for my character build / purposes. Supplement this with light armor elsewhere to keep fizzle down and to get more focus/spellcrit/etc. effects. I don't see the light armor skill tree giving much benefit at all, unless you specialized in it for the flurry glyph speed, or wanted to take advantage of the critical chance bonus on carap cloth or supple leather. As a crafter filling many gear requests, I have seen a shift to more and more people - or at least, everyone who uses a weapon for their DPS, switching to bronze, in full or in part, as not only is the weapon damage increase from bronze more significant than the hardened leather light armor option, with the price of beetles these days its significantly cheaper AND offers protection and the heavy armor skill tree.

    While the light armor skill tree does synergize well with a few specific builds, I think its still lacking in order to make it an appealing choice for many others. I think the biggest impact of this speed decrease is going to be less people electing to go the light route - there's even less reason to now. The tree really needs some better passive skills in it to bring it up to par, in my opinion.
     
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  5. Nog

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    I've read some comments that share my feeling about light armor as a melee build. It's a staple in fantasy mmorpgs to have a class or archetype of a rogue, light armor weapon master, swashbuckler and the like. And obviously archers and rangers use light armor in many games for kiting and mobility. I'm not a ranged player but understand this is the primary complaint about movement nerfs (especially nerfs on hard-earned mobility skills).

    As a light melee I use speed and mobility to move around the field or make tactical retreats and b-lines at enemy archers and mages. But light armor melee isn't quite as gimped by the 50% movement reduction as light armor bow-users simply because speed is something we use but not every second in a fight. We also are doing a fair bit of standing in the trenches trading blows, albeit with more dancing around for positioning.

    I have chosen to wear light armor as a melee/sword build because this is a roleplay style and playstyle I traditionally gravitate toward. No thanks to slug-it-out heavy armor, tanky builds. I respect that others enjoy those; it's just not my thing.

    This is where your comment resonated with me. Light armor feels inferior to heavy armor as a skill tree not just in the fact **light armor has fewer abilities than any other tree**, but heavy armor is a really full tree with amazing stuff in it for melee: bonus strength, huge damage reductions, stun resistance, and Body Slam. Light armor has some attack speed and dodgy bonuses. Unfortunately they are mostly toggles that can be a bit tricky to maintain or spend time clicking in combat. Escape is only useful in group play. And, of course, the running speed abilities took a reduction.

    I'm not sure if there is a will on the gamemakers' part to give some love to light armor/light melee but currently I feel the tree is lacking that punch that doesn't quite make up for the middle ground damage resistance - and especially in comparison to the heavy armor tree.

    Fizzle is a factor in light armor vs. heavy armor. But if you focus primarily on mundane/weapons and are not a big magic user that isn't really a net gain for light armor.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
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  6. Barugon

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    At 100, a five-stack of Flurry gives 46.8% attack speed boost. That's not minor, it equates to 46.8% more damage over time.
     
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  7. kaeshiva

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    Yes, to basic attacks though, not glyphs. While this is certainly of benefit to archers or light-melee folks who get a lot of non-skill hits in, its of no use whatsoever for skills or, say to a magic user. As I say, I think it synergizes with certain builds particularly ranged builds, but "faster basic/auto attacks" is not enough of an enticements. Its only 46.8% more damage over time if all you're doing is autoattacking, I would expect for most folks the majority of their damage comes from skills rather than either the little auto-hits in between (or faster 'charged' basic attacks.) Sure, there are builds or ways of playing out there that will give you more benefit out of basic attack speed but they are pretty specific, and honestly if you were to compare this to the heavy armor strength boosts which would increase your global damage (including skill damage), assuming you're using a weapon - well, then it becomes less significant.

    It is in no way my intention to spark a massive debate - both armor types have merit, and have builds that take advantage of their capabilities. Light armor has always felt a bit underpowered to me, and I feel a bit silly as a mage running around in heavy armor but the light armor was doing absolutely nothing for me, at least the heavy gives me more defense/hp.
     
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  8. Barugon

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    It also makes charging a free-attack 46.8% faster.
     
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  9. kaeshiva

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    Yes, this is implicit. But how many people just charge up free attack and don't use any skills? As I say, its absolutely useful for certain playstyles - but I've always found attack speed bonuses up or down to be pretty negligible. Ie autoattack dummy for 30 sec with/without defensive stance, you get a few more hits in, in the same amount of time. I consider this pretty minor or negligible, since one good thrust will likely do the damage of 10 such hits. Its all about playstyle, in the end. If you're running around charging free attack over and over, then yes, flurry is for you. That's a pretty specific use-case for light armor though, lol.
     
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  10. Pounce

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    My opinion is that light armor always was about trading protection for mobility (or less fizzle for the caster)

    But while casters stay out of melee naturally (and should have the tools to keep out of it, like gust) All others depent on mobility (or avoiding damage, but that is not that much an point with sota)

    Magic resist is bad, so staying out of area effects is already an big issue for someone who builds for damage output, not soaking it up.

    Mobs in higher levels do break the speed limit (I am in AWE how fast skeleton footmen can move, and they deal serious damage, and stun, and soak punishment up as if it is nothing)

    Would i prefer an more sedate fighting where tactic has more weight? Certainly, but most players want the fast paced action, so not an thing we will see.

    So we are stuck with wearing heavy armor as long not slinging spells (or barred from playing solo because with speed gone we need an tank, period.

    That all applies only for group play though.
    Do i move lots as archer while in groups? Only if i kite an heavy to take heat of the maintank, that worked well before snare was nerfed for use on bossmobs, then took immense skill and coordination as soon snare was taken away or wears of in split seconds, now it is next to impossible, so my worth to an group is reduced to standing back, shooting arrows and praying that i do not draw aggro.

    In other words i am less use full in a group.

    Playing solo I am limited to single mobs who better not have an individual name or are naturally slow, with the way bow damage is limited with lower crits and no poison allowed I depend on using focus for any significant damage so i have downtime, have to abort if i run out of focus and so on.

    I am not the opinion that adjustment should not happen, but they should be done to make the game balanced, there need to be compensations that change tactics, not reduce the usefullness in an group and enforce the wearing of heavy armor or going mage if one wants to play solo too.

    My suspicion is that some people in developement see the most desirable build as using heavy armor, sword and shield for melee, mage for ranged.

    That would explain why so much care is invested into theese two options while everything else is done in an lackluster way, it is there but obvious not much effort put into it.

    Even EverQuest, an game where soloing past lvl 30 was absolute not effective (could be done but group was always more effective) an high level rogue could tank (using avoidance) pretty scary things, only the mega bossmobs where heavy specialised tanks only!

    Now i tried heavy armor and pole and feel like I am invested with godly powers, but it does suck the fun out of the game for me, I had high hopes that in Sota finally an game makes archery worthwhile in higher levels, something no game i played so faar accomplished (Everquest 1 and 2, Istaria, age of conan, to name a few i played )
     
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  11. Barugon

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    It would be really nice if Flurry also reduced cast time, so that charging up spells would be a bit faster.
     
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  12. Diab Blackbow

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    Flurry is awesome when specialized because it allows you to stack skills faster and charge shots faster. It basically makes my play style.
     
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  13. Arcanoxer

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    I don't get it, Heavy Armor is stll overpowerd and they nerf the light armor combat speed?
    Now the light armor skill is almost useless for Archers, because the Heavy armor skill is supreme in almost every aspect, exept fizzel chance. (dodge is a joke)
    @Chris can we get a 100% unlearn for light armor skill?

    I was hoping for a better monthly update quality after the release of the game, but it's still the same error and trial bugfest over and over. :(
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2018
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  14. Pounce

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    I second that, If an ability of an skill tree is reduced, an 100% exp refund for thoose who desire so would be fair and not game breaking.
    I switch to heavy armor/pole so i have already tons of exp that is tied in bow and i either need to take an heavy penalty in unlearning or buy scrolls for in the shop
     
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  15. Diab Blackbow

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    Heavy armor might be the true path of an Archer now anyways since they added the STR bonus to bows and crossbows. Dex + skill level adds to accuracy, and Dex seems to only add a little bit of crit, not the /400 @Chris keeps saying. Stacking as much STR as you can with heavy armor and beserker with just enough Dex to hit will probably be the new meta. We are melee with bows :(
     
  16. Arcanoxer

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    Yeah, with Longbows. :confused:
     
  17. Despothes2

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    Just need to keep 100% unlearn all the time with the wild changes every release.
     
  18. Pounce

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    but...if i dualwield swords instead i do more damage AND can use poison if i use heavy armor already... (and lots of heavy armor skill is melee centric)
    The only real benefit of bows is range, they are inferior on all other parts. (given the focus skills like snare are nerfed for bossmobs anyways)
     
  19. Barugon

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    Nice. How much boost?
     
  20. Diab Blackbow

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    You can probably see the card draw speed in my current videos but it's like Chaotic Feedback without the negatives.
     
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