Making Episode 1 Great (Virtues, Quests, design, Dialogues, Immersion)

So guys,

Following a suggestion from @Lum the Mad, i began brainstorming about questing and the current virtue system, NPCs, dialogues, quests, etc.

This is mainly a Storyteling and Roleplay thread, if you expect a TL;DR, sorry, you ain't getting one. Also, there'll be SPOILERS here, and if you don't want them, i advise to not continue from this point forward.

A last disclaimer: i know devs (Specially Darkstarr, Chris, Richard Garriot, etc) are very busy now with the release and i expect not a great amount of attention now; but don't worry, ill bump this again after you're done. And i don't really know if this is the place to post such a comprehensive topic, maybe will move it somewhere else later, but will try here this time anyway.

So... that said, down to business.


Introduction
==========

We all know that approaching launch, the game will be getting "several" side quests and fillers to bring new players to attention, along with main quests polish... but since we don't have all schematics and details, i started to worry that the current system will need some kind of a revamp and tweaks, if the game is to deliver it's promises: a more immersive and richer experience than other MMOs around. I don't like being a Negative Nancy feedbacker, but won't lie either: sorry to say, but the current system is somewhat lacking at this moment (but good news is, with some tweaks - many small, some not-so-small, it can become fantastic), so why this tweaks may be necessary.

New Tech
============

And when i said tweaks, i mean new tech. Those are:

1) NPC Phasing (the biggest one IMO)
2) Restricted Keywords mode
3) A Bigger, Better, virtue system
4) Quest Drop System and broader Quest Conclusion triggers
5) NPCs that will BUMP into you and force situations and conversations
6) Some other capabilities of quests affecting and be affected slightly by other systems (like shop vendors, periods of years, etc)
7) Scenario Phasing (you may leave this to the future)

I'll explain why, by describing what have been my experiences with the question up to now...

Current Issues
=============

So, What are the Problems with Current System Then?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Having done pretty much the entire Episode 1 (up to the Shroud) along with all of (or most of) sidequests, including newbie zones, i found out that the current conversation system is working against immersion, rather than favoring it.

You can just talk anything you want with NPCs and this brings some problems, that actually all of the keywords are avaliable from start, you can choose whatever you want and end up jumping subjects, breaking conversations and at the end not having a real choice either... it feels a lot "mechanical" and unrealistic and artificial - like you aren't even talking to fictional NPC. Richard even talked about playing getting lost in dialogues in a recent talk.

One person just don't go around asking people for "name, job, health"... this feels too robotic and unfinished to do. Me, for instance, while doing Boreas Path, i found myself in the same dull "bonesteel" keywording with every NPC i bumped into - something you never do in your daily life, i suppose - and jumping to the next phase.

There are also problems with the Virtue System, that currently (according to Lum) a mix of the 3 main: Love, Truth and Courage. I have disserted about some problems this brings right here (so i'll not repeat myself):
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...all-eight-virtues-spoilers.95839/#post-849875

So all i am saying is that the entire system is entirely failed? Not at all, but with those tweakes and new techs it will be enhanced by a lot.

To exemplify how the system may be enhanced with all features i posted, i'll take a simple quest, where you have a conversation with a shopkeeper in Ardoris whose daughter was murdered not long ago and how it could be A LOT better and impactfull - both to you, the environment and the NPCs (from a Roleplayer PoV) than it is now...


Quest start.... your avatar walks into a sobbing NPC on the market...

Spoiler: Ardoris Shopkeeper - Current Version

Greetings, wayfarer, and welcome to Ardoris Imports. I shall need to be a bit brief, for I am in mourning for my daughter.

Lianna Llywelyn: name
Simone von Eglinger: My name is Simone von Englinger, and I run Ardoris Imports. It is a pleasure to meet you.

Lianna Llywelyn: job
Simone von Eglinger: I run this shop. We specialize in goods that have been imported from other lands. Always the unexpected at Simone's!

Lianna Llywelyn: help
*quest trigger* I should try and uncover the identity of the "black arrow archer" who has been killing children in Ardoris.
Simone von Eglinger: I know that you are not from Ardoris, but perhaps you did not find yourself here by chance. Perhaps you will be able to help us with what happened with the children who have died here as the Oracle predicted.

Lianna Llywelyn: Oracle
Simone von Eglinger: I visited the Oracle after my daughter's death. She said that a stranger would reveal what was hidden. I hope that you are that stranger and can help find the person who did this. (off-topic)

Lianna Llywelyn: hidden
Simone von Eglinger: Out of sight is out of mind. Perhaps it's easier for everyone to pretend it didn't happen. That it could happen to their child. (off-topic)

Lianna Llywelyn: children
Simone von Eglinger: After my daughter was killed, two others were killed by a black arrow. Our children will not be safe until whoever is targeting them is found. Perhaps a new set of eyes, an outlander such as yourself, could discover who is targeting our children.

Lianna Llywelyn: outlander
Simone von Eglinger: I know that you are not from Ardoris, but perhaps you did not find yourself here by chance. Perhaps you will be able to help us as the Oracle predicted. (filler)

Lianna Llywelyn: found
Simone von Eglinger: Please, tell me if you have found anything about my daughter. (out of context)

Lianna Llywelyn: arrow
*quest hint* This sounds like it could be a clue. I took note of it in my journal.
Simone von Eglinger: Captain Cugel tells me that each murdered child was killed by a Black Arrow that looked like it was charred by fire.

Lianna Llywelyn: targeting
* Another hint* The black arrow archer has only targeted children who were out alone. The children were struck in the head or neck bu a single black arrow, as if fired on from above.
Simone von Eglinger: Only children out alone have been struck down, each by a single black arrow. They were all struck in the head or neck, as if fired on from above.

Lianna Llywelyn: safe
Simone von Eglinger: After the third child was killed, people began keeping their young children hidden away in their homes. Poor Tanya only left her son alone for a moment while she was at market when he was killed.

Lianna Llywelyn: Tanya
*Last quest hint* I should travel to the marketplace and seek out Tanya so I can ask her if she saw anything that could help me find the black arrow archer.
Simone von Eglinger: Tanya's son was killed on the stairs leading down to Market square. Tanya blames herself for leaving him there to play. Ardoris used to be a place where children were safe.

Lianna Llywelyn: Ardoris
Simone von Eglinger: I thought that Ardoris would be a safe place to raise my daughter. I was wrong. (Off-Topic)

Lianna Llywelyn: cugel
Simone von Eglinger: He tried to find out who was targeting the children, but I'm afraid he never did. And now with the threat from the undead, it doesn't seem like a priority anymore.

Lianna Llywelyn: undead
Simone von Eglinger: All of the guards are worried more about the dead than they are the living.

Lianna Llywelyn: children
Simone von Eglinger: You must be new to Ardoris. Our children are not safe here. After my daughter was killed, two others were killed by a black arrow. (repeated conversation line)

Lianna Llywelyn: buy
Simone von Eglinger: Here is what I have for sale.

So, the problems i found here were:

1) Generic Keywords and Generic Answers:
When you talk to Simone, no matter she is mourning her daughter's loss, she will brag about her shop (always the unexpected at Simone's!)... this is minor, but breaks a little the role. All because the character must parse a generic keyword and answer to it. (Better if she bragged only AFTER things were already settled down and she was already coping with this).

2) No real choices ongoing:
The generic keyword brings another problem - it leaves you without a proper choice. When i say "help" to her, it automatically writes on my journal and give me a quest. Should i take it? Am i a good avatar willing to serve justice? Or will i prevaricate here? Or further: will i prevaricate and either be cruel? No visible option!

2) Disordered/Disconnected conversations and keyword gambling:
What it feels now is that with the current system you are on a keyword lottery. You just have to "test" which one you have to click (or type) to get to the next phase. Notice that i said help -> Oracle -> hidden -> children -> outlander -> found -> arrow -> targeting -> safe -> Tanya -> cugel. -> undead -> children -> buy

I was trying to get a clue about what happened, but of the 13 keywords i pressed, 4 were misleading Off-Topic subjects (didn't know until i test) or just a filler, others were related to other quests, etc. I also could say buy and just break everything in the middle and open up the shop whenever i want, no real consequences.

Way too mechanized...

From therein i can either:
- Go on and try to complete the quest (linear)
- Leave it forgotten on my questbook forever or until i am on the mood
- Ask to a Town Crier to clear my "Current Tasks" and see it vanishes, although i'll still have progress left on that.


This all doesn't seems that much fulfilling from an RPGer Point of View.... you mainly talked random with character, got something to do, and now you either do it or forget it, no real changes to nothing... thats it.. you're done with it.

Few quest dialogues will be challenging or meaningful after that.


So, my suggestion to "fix" this is by:
==========================

1) Restricting your interaction to the character while she is moaning her loss (New Tech - Restricted Dialogues preventing to open shop). This means: stop the keyword gambling, because now conversations may have consequences... and if you try to just open the shop recklessly for the first time without listening to her case, you get a hit to your "compassion". You also gets a bit of "prevarication" karma. Notice: the game MUST notify the user of this, at least in some newbies quests or when the "feature" is first presented. Don't let players blind, they'll just feel cheated uppon!

Also, you should not just say "BUY" anywhere, but have some choices (or keyphrases, not keywords) like:
- "I will definitely talk about this, but i need to buy something" (a bit of +prevarication)
- "Oh, this is a cruel world, i am sorry for your loss [uncaring]" (still ask to buy something: +cruelty/++prevarication)
- "Yeah, yeah, don't you bother me with this again, i am only here for the stuff" (+++cruelty/+++prevarication -> shopkeeper stays in shock, there's a chance she will not even sell you anything and call the guards if you continue to be mean (New tech - NPC Phasing) )

2) Following the "main line" conversation, you should navigate easier within the dialog, not losing yourself that fast with side dialogs such as typing "Ardoris" or "found". Also, repeating dialogs should be avoided or just "forbidden" at all. See, i talk multiple times of "children" just because the keyword appears multiple times. They all lead to the same repetitive response... this should not happen. If a keyword is allowed to repeat, at least the character may want to make you aware that he just talked about this (actually we have this already, but for few to almost no keyword). Also the current system of "free" keywords let you go back and forth in dialogues too freely... again, breaks immersion.

3) When she talks about her child and OFFER you the quest, instead of just scribbing this to your journal, you get real answers to her, like (New Tech - Expanded Virtues):
- "Don't worry, i'll definitely look into that [true]" (+Justice/+Compassion +Love)
- "Okay, i'll investigate, stay cool [lie]" (+Prevarication/+Disgrace -Truth)
- "I'll do it, but you'll have to pay for it!"
- "Have someone else to do this for you" or;
- "Oh, c'mon, i can't do this. Why would i mess up with a dangerous murderer?" (+Cowardice/-Courage)

4) After you get the quest (of course, NPC expressing concerns that more children may be harmed and your journal speaking of it), if you just ignore the rest and go level up and care of your regular business, within time, more children starts to die (New Tech - Time affecting quest status). The ones you see on Sequanna Square maybe begin to vanish (Phase out)... After x Days of gameplay (meaning, several hours ingame), quest is over... The murderer archer killed 5 children and then commited suicide. Your virtue is severely affected. The Oracle warns you about it and removes it from your journal. Permanent consequence: now the shopkeeper will never be the same with you again (evil avatar: "who cares, she is just a bookseller anyway"). Even if some times of the (brittanian) year she offers you an exclusive book that now you must buy from someone else (New tech also).

5) You get a real option to drop the quest from the Journal Menu - like clicking the quest and chosing to ABANDON it. If you do so, then consequences of point 4 still happens, you get +Prevarication and +Cowardice. You are not able to begin it again. Of course there is a notification from the game that your attempt to clear the quest will have consequences.

6) If you complete the quest, you see real consequences in the world: people feel safer, and now more children are seen on the streets, stopped moaning around, this time unarmed, some of them besides their parents (NPC Phasing again). The ones you know stop cowering in fear. Simone finally starts to cope with her loss and even adopted a refugee from Solace Bridge to help the poor kids.

Happy ending. +++Compassion/+++Justice/+Bravery.

End of quest


By this "kind of" not so complex system, you add a huge deal of immersion to the game. Also, virtues stop being a: +One, -Minus other. Maybe this makes sense in some scenarios (like lying to spare someone's feelings maybe grant you +love and -truth), but not all cases follow it.

And the Humility "workaround" you implemented (doing quests bellow your level) seems the most of the unimersive experience on game, sorry. There should be PLENTY of quests testing you in every possible way.

Just like the initial oracle test - the ones for you to choose your path, no real "wrong" answers, just different consequences and karma. That should be a constant ingame, not a single flavored one.

This is why you may want to improve the virtue system all along - because it is a MAIN part of Episode 1.


Other Considerations
================

Here above, i gave just a small example of how a vary simple dialog-based quest may be much more fulfilling and deep meaning than the average Kill this, Bring me That stuff you find elsewhere. Also it avoids the "Keyword Clickstorm Lottery", where people just hacks their mouses on keywords to get things done as fast as possible, because they know that there is only one path for most stuff and also that they must beat the "lottery" to get anywhere else. NOW YOU MUST MAKE REAL CHOICES WITH PERMANENT IMPACT on your character, just by interacting with text, so i doubt one will be recklessly messing around with text chat anymore.

With this new system, here is what i hope for the final product to be:

1) You still are able to "complete quests" by acting "mean" and gain experience even by droping quests, but usually is far less and you also take hits to your virtues; all of this documented on your journal; (for instance, if you lie to her and then drop the quest after, you still get, say.. 1000 exp out of 10000, but takes a impact on your virtue. No gold of course)

2) You may choose to help or to harm people, instead of just "do this, do that, go here, talk to this" linear quests.

3) Your actions will impact the people and the scenario (future) around you. And even some item prices (for instance, you chose to let that farmer die? Meat prices raises just for you in the next brittanian year, until things settle down (Again, new tech - Quests affecting other systems))

And by having all those possibilites in hand, main story may be expanded so:
- You can Help Samael with his sorrow, or you may just kill him to also get a hit on Sequanna and making her even weaker than before to steal the artifact out of her hands.
- You may unite the Shogun and Khasi, this case, she will move back to his palace, or you may break them further appart.
- You may stop people from going to Artifice to be made into weapons, or you may break Boreas even more by luring more folks there.
- You may lead the Faun rebellion, instead of just witnessing it or you may break their spirit into slavery.
- You may save the imprisoned children at Artifice by sacrificing yourself into that maze, now filled with monsters, or you may pull another level that will get you a shortcut to the Dying Boreas, a purse of 500 golds and a HUGE virtue hit.
- You may serve justice to Grannus, fight in behalf of his son, or just watch him die.

All of this... with not so many changes to the current game engine, but with great changes to quest designing.


Extra: Devotionals, The Oracle, Intermitent Quests
======================================

With this system in place, you must have ways to change your karma. Bits by bits. So, since some of the stuff over there i talked is permanent, you may have


A) Devotionals as a good first expiatoriy. For instance, every time you use one, and choose (again, not automatically) to worship the virtue, you get a buff and also a bit of the associated virtue (may be limited to once a day, etc). And you also may choose to lie at the altar or even desecrate it, in which case, you still get a buff (actually, a RED buff) associated with the Anti-Virtue of that devotional. Again, once a day.

B) The Oracle also can offer you some tasks (repeatable, or once a day or a week), just as:
1) "sacrificing" your wealthness to the poor or to a orphan entity.
2) Killing/arresting (+compassion) some bandits that start to harm a village or PoT (not world aware, just you - again, Phasing Tech)
3) Offering some % of your gained Experience to boost spirituality
4) Feeding beggars
5) Giving up a powerfull item to compensate for your prevarication and dishonor (+7 or +8 weapon). Depending on your karma there, she may even demand an Artifact.
6) Having you to go Meditate (yes, the emote) or go Fishing (YEAH! THIS) for a time as a "Penitence" to your sins.
7) Just saying SORRY for someone you hurt before and are still able to help (as long as they are alive of course). Quest again avaliable.

C) You may have intermitent quests appearing "at random" or in certain times or phases of the moon (like sieges) you are able to complete within the hour. Or able to harm more folks whithin the hour... [lol]

- Some of these quests may even be designed by the community. Call it Quest Outsourcing. Of course, you still free to approve it or not. You may even make quest designing contexts for that... having deadlines and so. Prizes? Well, you get a whole add-on store to "pay" for the work, use it.

- You wanted us (Dev+) to design a character. How about this designed character have an option to get an intermitent quest as well? Maybe a guard has a problem. Or a passing tavern patron. That is a good Dev+ perk to help compensate the latest outcry about the QA changes.


Conclusion & Outsourcing
========================

Anyway... I could go on, and on, and on... and talk about every pieces of the questlines and virtues i've ever found up to now... but of course i lack the lore in what your plans are and the manpower to do so.

What i see is a great oportunity, maybe for a mindblowing immersive gaming experience, or maybe for you to just go on as it is - which as i said i find a bit lacking still (even though i love this game, i am analyzing as a whole new player, one that do not know the devs, nor anything and will just come here from a $40 steam purchase and then go out speaking bad of the game).

So, count on me, i wanna help as far as i can go and i know of your time constraints. But given the majority of the engine is done and you have a solid framework in front of you, this may be easier to implement than you think (just requires some good people writting texts, testing, phasing, etc).. it just takes a couple of good storytellers (you got more), good tech designer (yeah, got it) and maybe a little scripting and texting outsourcing to do this and to help in rewritting what is already "finished".

Sorry for the long post, but since Lum hinted me to do it, and call it to @Lord British 's attention,

Here it is.

Regards.

 

PS: Oh, and i forgot to talk about:
5) NPCs that will BUMP into you and force situations and conversations

This can be used to test your virtues, like beggars wanting some coins and having the options::
- Sure, take 1
- Omg, poor guy, take 10.
- Get out of my face, scum!

And those kind of stuff... real life situations sometimes just FORCES you to react, not just when you want to react to. (For instance, you can be boarded by a guard in a city in desperate need of help... chose to help or not - timed quest again - given that timed quests only count played hours to avoid disconnection cringe).

Just a summary of what it can be done with this.

 

I personally would rail against this.

 

I agree. I also don't particularly want a time based system added to the quests, either. I'd rather this be an actual "I made this choice" vs "I went afk for a few hours and now things are gone" type of scenario.

The main take home I think that's important here is that quests can have different outcomes and then the NPC's/World/etc react according to those outcomes. This is currently missing and desperately missed. I hope the engine is capable of doing this as, IMO, the essence of a sandbox RPG is choice and consequence.