Meaningful combat

i cannot agree more with this - i think what we have now is placeholder for exactly that. its coming, albeit slowly, but it IS coming. once we're systems complete and can start putting polish on the systems, tweaking the AI a bit is a part of that, and i think things will start to work very well together. i'm going to stick around for it, and continue to drop my thoughts on how it works (or doesn't work). there's times where the dev<>gamer wall can be a tough boundary to cross, and this group of devs seem to constantly be aware of that, which is a good thing.

 

Just to clarify on this (quoting myself, woo)

I would like abilities to do reliable damage. It might be heavily influenced by the enemy's armour, etc. But the base damage should be reliable. i.e. If you hit the same thing 10 times without any change to any stats or effects on either side, the damage range should not fluctuate wildly.

Melee knockback needs a purpose. Generally if I knock something back in PvE, all that actually means is I need to walk up to it or wait for it to get back to me before we continue fighting. Knockback could briefly open them up to larger damage, or make them get knocked down by a follow up attack. Maybe after a knockback, your knockback abilities change into follow up charge-in abilities. Maybe it could even apply a staggered condition that various abilities can capitalise on, etc.

Knockdown just needs to be more impactful. I hear it's been altered now? But when I last used it, the mob basically played a fall animation, but pretty much just kept attacking as if nothing had actually happened.

Armour Reductions could be far more noticable but use charges instead of time. i.e. using Break Armour could apply a big armour debuff with 3 charges. Each time the enemy is hit by an attack that is reduced by armour, they lose a charge. So basically it'd be 3 big hits after breaking their armour. Stacking it could add extra charges and more armour reduction. The limit on the amount of hits allows the actual effect to be bigger. It also emphasises a bigger bonus to large hits during that period.

By the same sort of logic, some attacks might make an enemy take X extra damage per hit for Y seconds, favouring fast small attacks instead.

Dodge could apply to next-hit effects. Dodge the next attack completely and gain X damage reduction for Y seconds based on the amount of damage avoided. Obvious effect, rewards you more if you block a large attack.

Things like this that make you think about what you're using rather than pressing whatever pops us on your bar.

 

I'm posting back on this thread to compile my thoughts post-R22. I still feel the same way regarding combat. It feels very unrewarding at the present time. I think it's combination of things...

Not enough meaningful skills in the trees.
The trees are too small.
Not enough trees to promote individuality.
--Crossbow?
--Unarmed?

What about non-physical combat related trees?
--Creature Assessment (A tree dedicated to identifying weaknesses)?
--Conversion (Convert health to mana, stamina to mana, mana to health, etc.)?

...Just thinking and editing my post "out loud"


In addition, the combat system still feels bland. There are many other posts in this thread that are far more analytical and true to what's missing. I wish I had insight into what the SCRUM team was discussing, at least a high level overview as to what the goals are.

 

I really wanted to attempt to convey what I mean in this post and I have spent a good bit of time discussing it on Mumble with my guild-mates. We all rather agree that combat is directly tied to advancement and vice-versa. It needs to be fun to want to advance and like-wise, advancement needs to provide interesting choices for us to want to participate in playing long-term; inadvertently means a lot of combat

Stats and Skills
It is quite difficult, at this time to figure out what skills get what bonuses from what stats. Perhaps using a color code system that surrounds a particular skill would be the way to go. For example, surrounding the Fireball spell with a PURPLE border would indicate that it is an intelligence-based spell, thus getting that appropriate bonus. In addition, the word SPELL should be used prior to the name of the spell. For example, SPELL - Fireball or SPELL - Ring of Fire. This would indicate that this particular ability would get a bonus from stillness, etc. It clears up some of the "unknown" aspects of the system.

Diversity
We need more trees or better fleshed-out current trees. There are simply not enough "flavor" abilities that give the feeling of living a unique Avatar life in this amazing world. I will propose some tree names below with their description. I will attempt to provide more tree options.

Ranged
- Javelin (Moderate-ranged weapon, longer than crossbow, shorter than Bow)
-Dart (Close-ish ranged weapon) / Slingshot

Melee
-Unarmed (Martial Arts)
-Chain Weapons (control)

Magic
-Illusion (Crowd Control)

• Dancing Scimitar - The illusionist summons a phantasmal scimitar. This item replaces their current mainhand weapon with a temporary weapon which empowers subsequent illusion abilities.
• Mind Prison - knockback the target placing them in a temporary mind prison, preventing them from performing any action for 15 seconds; this effect ends on damage.
• Wall of Illusion - Creates a barrier at the targeted location. The barrier allows no attacks to be made other than ranged. The wall dissipates after 10 seconds or when it's health reaches 0.
• Phantom Arrow - Launches a projectile at the selected target reducing resistances for a brief period.
  
• Ethereal Might - Summons a phantasmal hammer above the targeted location, after 3 seconds, the hammer drops knocking down all enemies in the area.
• Blurry - The target becomes the shadow of an illusion making it briefly difficult to hit. This spell can be cast on self or an ally.

-Enchanter (Enchant the weapons and armor of allies and self)

• Thorns - Enchants the targets armor with Thorns which reflects damage back to the attacker. (Spellweave - Juxtapose + Thorns = Thorny Embrace [Enchants an enemy target with thorns that damage the enemy with each movement and attack they take for 6 seconds])
• Blinding Mirror (Enchants a Shield with the Blinding Light of the Sun reducing the attack skill of the enemy)
• Materialistic Binding - Enchants Leather and Light armor with the ability to absorb more damage for XX time
• Impenetrability - Enchants Metal Armor with a higher boost to damage absorption)
• Featherweight - Enchants the targets attack speed for a brief period (Spellweave - Juxtapose + Featherweight = Tip the Scales [Reduces the movement speed of the target and their attack speed for a brief period]

-Voodoo (Curses, AoE Debuff)

• Darkseed - Curses the soul of an enemy target. After three seconds, the target gains Confusion and Berzerk; attacking random targets at a reduced attack skill but increased damage (Spellweave - Juxtapose + Darkseed = Ancestral Fury [This spell affects the caster, causing increased damage and attack speed but reduces attack skill, movement speed, and armor for a brief time]
• Ray of Enfeeblement - Curses the target with slow movement and lowered strength.

-Magic Attunement (magic utility skills to affect cast time, instant cast, etc.)

• Quicken Cast - utility spell that increases cast time
• Combat Magi - stance that reduces fizzle while moving, but also reduces damage of spells
• Eureka - Instant-cast next spell

-Portal (Transportation and Binding)

• Bind Soul - A spell which locks the bind point to the city with which it is used in
• Bind Recall - A spell which teleports the caster to the last bind point
• Bind Summon - Summons a temporary rift for players to enter. The rift takes players to the last point that was bound by the caster.

Tactics/Utility Trees
-Healing (Bandages) allows the use of vendor and player-crafted healing kits and increases effectiveness.

• Poor Bandage
• Good Bandage
• Excellent Bandage

-Positional

• Backstab
  
• Kidney Shot
• Rupture
• Eye Gouge
  
• Execute

-Combat Alchemy (adds various effects when applied to weapons and when thrown in combat) - The "physical world" equivalent of CHAOS magic.

• Use Vial - Allows the use of Vials in combat. Vials are sensitive! Being attacked while using vials in combat can cause the vials to burst causing the effects on the caster!
  
• Flame Vial - Launches a flame vial at the target. The target burst into flames taking slow fire damage for 5 seconds. When flame vial is used on an ally it enchants the weapon with a lesser version of "Ignite Weapon." (Spellweave - Flame Vial + Fireball = Lava Vial [the targeted area is covered with flame causing fire damage to enemies within).
• Static Vial - Hurls a vial filled with static shock into the targeted area. The static shock briefly stuns enemies for 2 seconds. (Spellweave - Static Vial + Discharge = Thunderous Vial [Slows attack speed of all targets in the selected area for 6 seconds]. Using Static Vial on a weapon will slow it's attack speed but increase critical damage.

 

I've been trying not to comment that much on combat threads since most of my post are about this subject. That being said, this really explains my overall feeling about combat.

 

I just figured out what combat in SotA reminds me of...Anarchy Online when it first released. You wander around and click some buttons killing nondescript forgettable mobs that just don't matter to you. I so hope that feeling changes. I want to want to (if that makes sense) log in to SotA every day but I just don't feel that way.

 

Considering that there's no game in the game yet, what you're feeling is perfectly normal. However, even if the combat was the most epic, most heart-pounding experience ever... you'd still be killing nondescript forgettable mobs by clicking some buttons.

While that would enhance the experience, simply adding death penalties to an incomplete and imbalanced (read: broken) game is not a solution. In fact, I'd argue that this would only enhance the flaws of the current combat mechanics.

You sound new to PvP. It's an environment where people do all they can to gain the upper-hand even at the cost of immersion. It's the same reason why people care more about swords that give +2 to their strength over items that may have more story/emotional value. I have never seen a PvP environment where the players didn't look like chickens that are spazzing out... this goes 30 years back to games like Archon.

You talk about strategically positioning oneself in combat but that's exactly what the PvPers are doing... and this "dancing" is the direct result of this.

 

Yep, because currently, the only point to combat is resource acquisition. Either crafting resources, monetary resources, or XP.
Which is fine, lots of games have gone down this path, but it's a bit of a Skinner box problem.
Once players become accustomed to more frequent 'hits' of the reward from the Skinner box, it's very challenging to extend that frequency.
Time to kill is very important in resource acquisition games. And again, extending time to kill has huge impact, and veteran gamers know this (either consciously or not).

There are ways to to do it, of course. You can increase the reward per fight, and extend the fight time, but this is problematic in the face of potential exploits. That is, if a player figures out a way to kill loot-pinatas quickly, and/or without risk, then the resulting negative consequences (to the economy or overall game integrity) are amplified.
As a player gains the ability to do this naturally (by out-leveling content) then you're faced with the potential terrible solutions of diminishing returns or similar immersion-breaking punitive mechanics.

As a result of this risk, the tendency is more frequent easier encounters, but with less reward. Which is exactly what we're seeing so far in SOTA.

 

The mobs don't have to be nondescript things you kill by clicking any random button. That's the entire point of that sentence. It can feel like more but it just doesn't right now. My fear is that the swarms of "wolf", "bandit", "thug", etc aren't just there as placeholders and the PvE side of the game will just be there to give you xp so you can go be competitive in PvP.

I fully understand the game is in pre-alpha. I've been here from the start. I'm just really worried that the PvE side of the game is going to continue with this empty unrewarding feeling it has right now. There's some serious glimmers of hope coming down the path but I can only comment on what I see and feel right now.

 

Part of this feeling is loot. As of right now we are looting some rather unappealing items. There's no "slot machine" effect creating the feeling of exhilaration when you open up that next corpse.

 

Absolutely. That's all stuff that can be fleshed out closer to release I just hope that's the way they're headed.

 

I'll be honest. I've always been a fan of the Holy Trinity of MMORPGs. SotA gives me the feeling that each character is a version of the one next to it. Maybe the one to the right has more pastels while the other to the left has darker shades but they all feel and play similarly. You get a light armor, healing and blade spell out of the gate instead of points to add the way you want. Ranged be it magic or ranged weapons then close in melee or magic. Throw in a heal spell or a dodge skill or a stun skill to stave off damage. Each character can have alot of skills in several different modes of combat and magic and swap in and out of that at will. What it comes down to is lack of character identity. Oh sure, you can give your character a name, but because I want to use a mace today and have skill in it I just swap out my deck and put one in my hand. Everyone can be a trained weapon master and magi and healer. But also a hybrid of these. Which is the case for most decks. What I feel is missing are true bonuses to a cloistered advancement because there is no need to limit advancement and use of adventuring experience. The present system is just bland as hell.

 

I am in complete agreement with you. What do you think of this... it's a post I made on another thread:

"What do you folks think about a Specialized system? For example,

Specialized Skill Cap 3
We can specialize into three trees (increasing the rate at which we gain use-based experience in this trees)

Trained
We can train into any other trees (gain use-based experience at a lower rate)

Perhaps we need something like this instead of being able to get into everything or such? A system like this would reinforce, without restricting, players focusing on their desired skillsets while allowing people to not focus as well."

 

In summary, to make combat more "meaningful" we have the following:

1. Diverse class roles (everyone can't do everything but specialized in certain areas to promote diversity) through the use of more skills/deeper trees to promote diversity through specialization.
2. Specialization cap to reinforce players that want to focus their skill-sets.
   
3. Loot (not in the game yet); context in which to kill mobs over and over (advancement and loot)
4. COMBAT FLOW. (mentioned earlier in this thread)

The thread reviews a number of these topics.

 

That's totally subjective and contextual. It's not that they don't have to be, it's that they cannot be anything BUT nondescript unless they give context (aka: story - the one thing that Portalarium has been avoiding of releasing) and that's totally dependent on how successful that context is implemented.

They feel that way because that's what they are: dudes to click on. Expecting any different from game developers is unreasonable and that's only amplified by the scope of the project. The only thing that changes is how you suspend your disbelief.

 

There's a reason classic role playing games all had classes driving meaningful choice. It was to reward specialization, and it works. Very well.

But only if you want "Role" in your "Role Playing Game".

Warning, strong opinion ahead!

Spoiler: Opinions Regarding Role Consequences

It works well, except when generating content by hand, because you have to design content around all classes, rather than the bland pablum most modern games offer.
This is where on-the-fly dynamic, procedural generation of content can take into account the current group, and create content that is challenging ... FOR THEM. As in, the script generating the content is like a crude DM, adjusting content based on the people in the adventure party.
Optionally, even each encounter difficulty can be adjusted dynamically, at the party's request, based on gear or conscious choice. (after the map is generated, if that's desired)

My point is that the tendency towards bland characters is a direct result of no time, no people & no money to generate holistic content, but instead create generic bland content that anyone can faceroll. It's the epitome of the 'no-one can be a special snowflake, because everyone is a special snowflake' problem. There are solutions that have been around for decades, but for whatever reason, companies refuse to use them. /shrug

Some games have gone the "you must have at least 3 or 4 of this" and then hand made content based on that, which is just mediocre and solves neither root problem.

Heck, Sword Coast Legends is skirting around this issue by permitting DM's in-game, and.. well, it's still a mediocre half-baked solution. I think their intent was to allow the content to be dynamic, but they didn't go far enough.

The days of hand crafting content for persistent multi-player online games should be gone. Procedural content generation (in all respects) coupled with dynamic difficulty, on the fly, is where persistent multi player online games should be, by now.
That they're not, I think, is simply a result of an aging workforce that refuses to let go of the reins of control.

 

I agree they are nondescript unless we have a reason to kill them. In Diablo, it's kill mobs endlessly for loot and XP, which is what it is for nearly every game. The loot or "context" is what keeps people coming back and repeating it. I believe we will need more than "crafting" as a context to keep people killing things over and over. We need an interesting advancement/progression system with a plethora of skills that offer a way to feel a sense of accomplishment through a role/diversification.

 

To agra and padre,
I agree to what you have said.

For example, In EQ, one of my mains was a DE Enchanter. In a group i did alot. CC, Buffs, debuffs, mind blurs, charms (dps) etc. In solo I used a pet along with buffs, debuffs, Dots and DD. Against tough opponents it took pretty much all I had to survive each encounter but it was worth it. Especially for mobs that dropped excellent coin items/gems/gold or great, sought after loot items to either sell or give to alts or guildees. A chanter also had the ability to enchant metals, make vials of mana for crafting. Also, they could become any race. However they DO NOT stand toe to toe with anything and survive, period.

A warrior could not solo at all or do anything much but stand in front of mobs, keep their attentions and take the hits. They REQUIRED a healer, a buffer, a CCer and some DPS though.

A Rogue or bard had a whole list of non combat things they could do but also could not solo. They could DPS though and were great for CR runs. With a good buffer, debuffer, CCer and healer, they could tank though and eek through encounters.

Each character had a completely different experience. Thus, the game did as well.
-----------------------------

SotA: I kill a wolf, take its skin. I kill a tougher wolf or bear and take its skin and some suet if i'm lucky. I do this with a Hybrid deck more designed with melee, or one more designed with magic, or with some healing into it, or light armor or heavy armor or ranged. The SPO drives this tunnel vision that basically makes most variations survive through EP1 and beyond.

Creatures stop chasing and turn back making bulling through them easy to get to the next zone. Very little risk and nothing really great as a reward regardless of what you do. Crafting mats and coins? yes sir, daddy has to buy more Repair kits so he can go back out there, degrade his gear and get more stuff to sell to get more repair kits, rinse, repeat until I have enough mats and coin to craft. Then repeat the cycle. if there is more to it than this, where is that located?

In the zones, the creatures are spaced just so so that you have to kill them to harvest things in the zone. over time, I've already found this to be lackluster. I am not really interested in killing the animals but I have to to get to this tree. the few spells I have to calm them doesn't even work long enough for me to harvest and move on either. How does one get years out of this?

Even what I do is disconnected to my character. How? Well, no matter what I collect, I can sell it or use it to make stuff to sell to get what I need for my character. And I will do this by myself with a hybrid deck of some kind.

 

We're on the same page here.

 

I think we're working from two different definitions of nondescript...it means "lacking distinctive or interesting features or characteristics." As in everything is brown and standing around a tent and named the same thing, which exactly what we have. To not expect something more than that from the developers, especially considering the scope of this project, is unreasonable. Why would it be okay for them to just leave a bunch of "bandit", "wolf", "big wolf", "bigger wolf" mobs in game? All other decent MMOs and offline RPGs go far above this.