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Pillars of Eternity Does it Again! (Daggers)

Discussion in 'Release 16 Feedback' started by Poor game design, Mar 30, 2015.

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  1. Poor game design

    Poor game design Avatar

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    From PE: Some weapons (Stiletto, Mace, Estoc) reduce a portion of your opponents damage reduction.

    So the age old question, why do we have daggers? Should be that the reduce the effectiveness of some kind of basic defense. It's another tool in the toolbox, and hopefully that tool is best used when you're trying to stab someone in the back. ;)

    I hope SOTA examines all their melee weapons and makes all weapons more useful for a variety of situations.
     
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  2. Weins201

    Weins201 Avatar

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    ??

    What Variety of situations? I am out for dinner and have a fork but not a Knife? I went fishing but forgot a pole but hey I have my Halberd?

    Really A sword is for slashing / Stabbing, Axe for Hacking, Hammer for Smashing, Halberd for reach or pushing back?

    What more do you want, overcomplicated criteria just makes thing , well more complicated.
     
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  3. Max Bennis

    Max Bennis Avatar

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    Making weapons specifications vary is interesting idea, but @Weins201 has point, too. Maybe some adjustment like thrusting weapons like Stiletto, estoc to have slightly more critical chance, Crushing weapons like Mace, warhammer to have more chance to decrease armor value would satisfy your needs?
     
  4. Miracle Dragon

    Miracle Dragon Legend of the Hearth

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    Hmm.. maybe with enough skill in daggers, we could shave our face and cut our hair. Who needs a barbershop??
     
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  5. Poor game design

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    Currently... (and I'm making these numbers up from memory so please don't get caught up on the specifics.)

    A dagger does 10 damage max.
    A short short might do 15 max.
    A long sword probably does 20 max.

    Why would anyone carry a dagger or a short short - ever? The answer is, they almost wouldn't unless it's some kind of roleplaying or personal reason. From a game mechanic standpoint, everyone using a one-handed blade is going to carry a longsword. That's really my point in the OP. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

    Yes, a dagger has the most chance to CRIT, but who cares if it's 10 points lower than what you might average with a Longsword? If you simply raise the damage that a dagger does, then it really just becomes a high CRIT longsword and now everyone uses daggers. See what's happening here?

    So my suggestion is that a Dagger should do EXTRA damage when used for backstabbing. A Mace might do EXTRA damage against plate armor. An Estoc might reduce the protections of someone trying to dodge - just as another example.
     
  6. Arkah EMPstrike

    Arkah EMPstrike Avatar

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    But.....will it blend?

    Jk, They want the different weapon types to have different inherent abilities like that (Maces dealing more damage to armor was specifically mentioned).

    Also, every weapon in the game has the same base attack speed right now. I have no ide if thats how its intended but its something that could be suggested.
     
  7. Spoon

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    I fully agree, there should be a reason for each weapon to exist in the world.

    In some cases, price or encumberance could be a reason but not every time.


    To add to this

    1
    First an old suggestion of mine:
    Weapon speciality skill dependent on current weapon, giving a weapon master a range of abilities dependent on readied weapon. Adding a depth to bringing several 'tools' for the right job without the need to re-deck / re-skill
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...lity-skill-dependent-on-current-weapon.19534/

    2
    Spares.
    There should/will be ways to "disarm" someone. And weapons can already break.

    So one should be able to have a smaller "belt" slot on the Paper doll. Where you can place a smaller secondary weapon, which one can auto-switch to in case of disarm/break of the primary weapon.

    The UI would be that broken sword thingie popping up on the right side of the screen, double click it to switch.

    That way having a dagger (blades) or hatchet (bludgeon) etc, in your belt makes sense.

    3
    Specific weapons should be better with specific glyphs.
    For instance "Smoldering Shiv" should get a bonus from using a smaller blade, while a two handed claymore shouldn't.
    Likewise the "Swirling blades" should get a bonus from a longer blade, while a dagger shouldn't.
     
  8. Satan Himself

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    "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight" = "Don't bring a dagger to swordfight".

    Also:

    2 + 2 = 4

    Just to show the diversity of my math skillz.
     
  9. Poor game design

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    Knives kill people the same as guns. Especially if the person with the gun doesn't see you. Here I am doing 6 points of damage with a dagger using a 5 stacked sneak attack. What's the point of having daggers again?



    Just in case it's not clear, my expectation is that if I 5 stack sneak attack a player or an NPC using a dagger, they should be dead or near dead. Not walking back to their key board and saying "did I just get attacked?"
     
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  10. Arkah EMPstrike

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    I havent tried sneak attack thsi release but at the end of R15, it didnt work. it was jsut a regular attack whether you hti from behind or not, so that would probably be the issue of sneak attack not working.
     
  11. Arkah EMPstrike

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    As short as they are they would be better for thigns like stabbing and piercing, so having them have some kind of ability to Pierce might be good? I'd imagine their high crit was thought of for being a more In-your-face weapon allowing weakspots to be more easily exploited
     
  12. Weins201

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    Ok I see now but what we are NOT seeing is all the Data, and it has been asked for OVER and over, Dagger, what is the swing speed vs a Long, Sword? With a dagger as the 2nd weapon is the def bonus the same as the Def bonus for a long sword in second hand.

    I think if we saw ALL the raw data you might see something VERY different. or at las SHOULD.

    If not then I fully agree with you but I feel we are so young in development that these tweaks are a ways off.
     
  13. Malchor1

    Malchor1 Avatar

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    Also, i think making dual yield an actually useful skill may help give utility to other weapons, such as the off hand dagger, shortsword or handaxe. Right now it's just a skill you could any use if it pops up on your skills bar
     
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  14. Greymarch

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    Offhand attack is already pretty useful just due to low Focus cost and pretty buffable damage.
     
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  15. Floors

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    PoE has been a real eye opener in many ways for game design.
     
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  16. Akrondar

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    It is not late to take notes :p
     
  17. Floors

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    2H Attack is very ultima due to the whole "Main Gauche" thing in U5. That's how I learned about them in the first place. After that I always used Main Gauche in tabletop.

    I would like to see dual wield as some kind of skill. Dual wands ? Dual Staffs !

    Maybe not dual 2H weapons or dual long swords.... but dual short swords (we need short swords btw) or dual cutlasses or scimitars ? Yes !
     
  18. Poor game design

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    Agreed, as long as there are pluses and minuses. Otherwise you just get people using two of whatever does the most damage.
     
  19. Floors

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    Yeah that's true. Well... I'm hoping Shields will be effective enough by the end of balancing that sacrificing a shield will be offset it somewhat.

    In D&D, people have a lot of fun dual wielding, it makes people happy. In earlier editions they made you take a penalty, but later on they start to ease up and allow it if you spend skill points. It should be a high up skill or something and have restrictions.

    How is it balanced ? Well there's the whole "creatures that don't only take damage from certain weapon types, cold iron, fire, frost, etc" if there is enough of that, that could work where you can't always use your preferred dual wield weapons against every enemy or player.... No dual wielding 2H weapons ever, etc....

    Balance is the key, and it's the most difficult thing for any game to achieve.
     
  20. Poor game design

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    It's also frequently what games work the least on. In my opinion, and I'm not an industry person so no one cares, development of combat balance should begin immediately with the introduction of combat skills. Balance should then be an ongoing process that is integrated with the addition of ANY new components that impact combat. I have major concerns about our own ability to "start balancing" months and months from now because I think we've failed to do this.

    But regarding dual wielding, I find that players just want to be OP and pretend to be a Drizzit like character that has all the strength of using two blades yet none of the inherent weaknesses. I hate Drizzit, I think he's a boring silly character. The most interesting characters, and most balanced combat systems do not give power without also adding proportional weaknesses. That's how balance works. Maybe you can use two longswords (or if you're a Drizzit wannabe, two scimitars) and maybe that's to your advantage from a DPS standpoint. But maybe that also lowers your defensive capabilities and some weapons and armor combinations give you serious trouble.
     
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