Player-driven economy & consequence - back to basics in a harsher world

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Vallas (Beran’s Reach), Jul 13, 2020.

  1. Vallas (Beran’s Reach)

    Vallas (Beran’s Reach) Avatar

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    Ello all!

    Long-time, lurker, seldom forum poster and even fewer forum warrior!

    It's been a wild wide watching SOTA grow and develop from those early days of a windowless box and a chicken, to where we are now. I really do love the game and how it's developed, however there's been a question in the back of my mind for a while now, how does the economy thrive in a mature environment? Most of the people I see are oldies, with a vast gulf of experience and resources between the new and the old. Consequently, it feels like we're in a situation where the old leave due to a lack of challenge and the young find themselves at almost impossible odds, particualry those who fancy establishing themselves in trades surrounded by proverbial giants. In a situation like that, it's hard to establish necessarily the depth that an increasigly selective market are looking for.

    there are two conditions that arguably make a good MMO: Challenge and consequence. Making something hard-yet acheivable establishes goals and something to work toward, with a pay-off at the end. I'd argue that the challenge isn't so much there these days, particularly in light of XP increases. In addition, for more than a few skills, there really isn't the market for the goods that are produced (due to players, lack of attrition on goods and items etc). There is consequence in terms of XP unquestionably, but not-so when it comes to goods and equipment. If you die, your stuff stays with you. Not much is truly at-risk, therefore there isn't much need to replace expensive equipment. In addition, trades like food etc are ok, but they're far from a burning necessity.

    I'd be really interested to see if others would be interested to see a proverbial 'Perilous' hard mode *cough*, which necessites a solid ecnomic core that encourages player interaction, drives professions and gives greater meaning, while giving new players a fighting chance at pitching in at their professions early-on to meet demand. Need to eat? The vendor flogging squirrel bits on a stick will do. What no imediate supply of all you need from NPCs? Off to the player market for you. Just been robbed/murdered and suddenly bereft of oyur belongings? Yes, it's a tough world out there, crack on and get sorted. Your uber-sword just been snapped or gobbled up by something unpleasant? Best go and buy what you can afford, even if it's not quite the super weapon you hoped.

    I suspect that some wil not agree, which is absolutely fine. Still, curious to see who else out there would be interested in a harsher world. I'd play it in a heartbeat, and I suspect we'd find a fair more new friends in the process. :)
     
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  2. Vallas (Beran’s Reach)

    Vallas (Beran’s Reach) Avatar

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    V’s big list of unfair ideas

    1. 7x GM skills cap. Now you have to rely on others to make things for you (or shell out for alts but that will at-least slow things down a bit).
    2. If you die, your gear falls where it is and can be looted at-risk of being deemed a criminal.
    3. OoOooOoooOooOoo
    4. You can be murdered, anywhere, bar specifically assigned areas. Criminals will of-course be flagged appropriately, with bounty opportunities
    5. Thieves can operate anywhere, with appropriate response if detected.
    6. NPC will sell you the barest of essentials, at 4x the going rate, in an effort to encourage player alternatives.
    7. If you do not eat and drink, you will get sick. Taking care of the essentials is vital.
    8. Equipment can only be repaired so much. Weapons and armour will break, clothes will get spoiled, you will need to maintain and replace gear from time to time or else it will be gone forever.
    9. Greater effects for alcohol!
    10. Bacon!
    11. ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2020
  3. Net

    Net Avatar

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    I am all for harsh/survival world, but there are some important aspects that must be met for me. Just harsh without them is not good for me.

    The expensive better goods need cheap, easy to acquire and not so good alternative.
    The economy needs to be dynamic, the resources need to be somewhat limited but no one should be able to hoard everything. The world needs to be self-sufficient, and influenced by players rather than controlled by them, in my opinion.
    There need to be CONSEQUENCES to ones actions. Especially death. And it should not matter whether you die in PvP or PvE. Preferably there should be option for non-lethal combat/duels to show ones skill without actually killing opponents.
    The game should not distinguish between players and NPCs (much).
    Also I think the game needs some "gray" content, something like faction affinity, when you are neither good nor bad for picking a side. Maybe you support Norgard, maybe you support Ardoris, there could be valid reasons to side with either side and there could be conflict (economical or military) between different factions and getting on good terms with one might unlock you some perks but deny you others.

    And yes there has to be place for new/casual players and experienced veterans. And it should not go stale so that the new players cannot progress further.

    ...

    Anyway I am a lazy player so I mostly spend my small income on reagents and cannot afford any overly good gear so I am used to playing in sub-optimal equipment. And it is fun and challenging and I can keep my expenses low. I would certainly like food and consumables to be more meaningful. Especially fishing cold use some love because no one seems interested in common fish and common fish food. So much of low tier food that no one wants, so that is my major issue, even the cheap low tier consumables and gear should be better than nothing....
     
  4. Vallas (Beran’s Reach)

    Vallas (Beran’s Reach) Avatar

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    a bit of low-level politics would be a nice touch.
     
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  5. Charon

    Charon Avatar

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    UO 2.0.

    TBH, this is more or less what I expected just with updated graphics when I got in on the kickstarter back in '13. Now, 7 years on I'm not sure how I feel about that or SoTA in general.

    It could definitely use some direction and some discipline. Firefighting isn't a development methodology that I'm familiar with and that appears to be what's being used here. Fling it at the wall and see what sticks and then move on.

    The thing I'm not at all certain of is would the model you describe, and I envisioned way back then, actually work in today's market? At the time it was great fun if you could ignore the lag and rubber banding. You definitely had to band together because no one could be everything unlike SoTA and there was always that minute of thought before you left your not so safe home about what do I wear, use and take with me because you could lose all of it at any time.

    I do know that some of the best, hardest "OMG I'm gonna pee in my pants" laughs I've ever had in a game came in UO. Herding guards through a portal to the Chaos shrine when I knew my buddies had just died and listening in to the slaughter, drunken vortex boxing, chasing someone through the trees trying to get the kill only to catch them right as they met their friends, etc, etc but I don't know if it'd work in today's market but I'd almost certainly give it a look.
     
  6. Vallas (Beran’s Reach)

    Vallas (Beran’s Reach) Avatar

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    Unashamedly UO 2.0. True, it's a different time and I guess some aaspects of the good ol' days have stayed very dead for a reason. Still, despite being a hilariously broen model, it was as you say a fun one.
     
  7. Duke Gréagóir

    Duke Gréagóir Legend of the Hearth

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    So a cheap copy of Ultima Online. Sure, only if it was on a separate server. Keep the existing server the way it is.

    I have been making the majority of my armor as most player vendors are $$$$$. Certain things I will spend my coin on here and there.
     
  8. Scanphor

    Scanphor Avatar

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    Nothing would convince me to play the type of game you suggest, sorry
     
  9. Duke Gréagóir

    Duke Gréagóir Legend of the Hearth

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    We all have UO stories. Good ones.

    Like this one. I remember after Renaissance was released I started a new character and was in Trammel. A guy wanted to help me train skills. All I needed to do was kill a chicken while I was in Trammel. I did and turned grey. Then he PKed me and took all of my stuff. Great times! He never suffered any consequences.

    I did have real good times through all in Trammel where the griefers were at a limited capacity.
     
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  10. Vallas (Beran’s Reach)

    Vallas (Beran’s Reach) Avatar

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    October 1998, a player kindly offered to help train me up in swordsmanship on day 1.

    HE LIED!
     
  11. craftymethod

    craftymethod Avatar

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    Ive always thought Ocean scenes in the future could act like the "wild west".

    People seem to want this game to be a sims or barbie housing game more than having something exciting occur in their town.
     
  12. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    Duke Vallas -

    I can see the merit in the type of world you describe/desire.
    Unfortunately, the way many of the systems are implemented in Sota, I can't see it working unless a lot of core systems got a dramatic overhaul.
    The 7 GM cap for example, completely falls over with the magic attunement system requiring you to level up useless skills to increase magical potency.
    Dying and dropping gear, considering how difficult it is to obtain gear and the amount of resources required, and the amount of trial, error and waste to get what you want, basically means that people just slap on whatever's available and there's no market for nice things (and thus little reason to level crafting)
    Likewise, open-pvp and lootability everywhere is pretty brutal because of the current gearcrafting system. Why spend money to buy gear you're just going to lose repeatedly?

    You describe many ways in which you can lose everything you have but no suggestions on how to change the system by which gear and resources are obtained/made to compensate.
    As a result, I see a game that is a constant war of attrition - playing just to try and keep what you have, with no advancement due to caps, and no real accumulation of wealth or items since everything can be dropped, looted, stolen ...what's the goal?

    In survival type games that adopt much of the methodology that you suggest, there's usually things to fight over, political/faction systems, or some 'reason' to log in and do stuff. If you remove all of the purpose (levelling up, getting better, acquiring stuff, progression, etc) but don't add any sort of alternative purpose, I see a game that would be fun short term until you max as much as you can, but getting boring pretty quickly thereafter. Most survival games I fizzle out after a weekend or two, precisely because you can't progress beyond a certain point, there's nothing new to do except fight a constant uphill battle to keep what you've earned. Fun for a while, but not long term (at least for me.)

    All that being said, I do agree that the progression rate is far, far too fast now, and quickly outpaces all content.
    While the likelihood of a 'second server' is pretty slim due to the dwindling population, I'd much prefer to play with the persistence-day advancement rates because it meant putting in thousands of hours meant something. The 10,000 hours I've put into this game has being marginalized by a new account being able to powerlevel past me in a couple of weeks in both crafting and adventure experience has trivialized my efforts to the point where even with the double experience I see no purpose in playing. I might as well wait a few years until we're on 32x or 64x xp and catch up on what I would have achieved in a few years off. And that's not a good model.

    There's a reason why 'vanilla' versions of MMOs are gaining in popularity - the time you put in mattered, back then. Not so much today.
     
  13. Boris Mondragon

    Boris Mondragon Avatar

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    Brother; if you want a non Barbie/non SIMS world with action and a purpose try out the New World beta on August 25th like I am. R/Boris/El Pirata
     
  14. Restless

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    It’s quite clear the current safety first model isn’t working.
     
  15. craftymethod

    craftymethod Avatar

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    I like the idea of getting sick without food but not dying. Could even use the encumbered animation. lol