Please SotA incorporate more roles than the standard trinity

To create 'diverse' builds or to abolish the cookie cutter build (attempt to abolish at least) SotA's devs have to CREATE MORE ROLES to play. The standard tank/healer/dps has been beat to death which is why you always have these cookie cutter builds. How many different ways can you tank or heal OR DPS???

But you don't just create new roles to play by throwing in new skills. Entire new systems have to be implemented to create the need for these new roles. I only know of a few other roles to play from the other MMOs I have played but fortunately not a lot of MMOs have used these.

Crowd Controller - would require the large possibility of a player's group to be overrun by mobs. In return the crowd controller subdues the 'extra' problem mobs while the group dispatches the other mobs. This requires not only specific mobs spawning (can still be done with random spawning) but also map layout/level design that makes fighting groups of mobs tricky. Combine tricky level design with a large group of mobs and BOOM crowd controlling becomes a role necessary.

Pulling - would require mobs to first be social meaning they talk to each other once engaged and then would require very specific mob spawning and also mob pathing. (this may not be easily done with the recently announced random spawning) but the puller needs to be able to learn the pathing of the mobs to understand when to pull the mob. But as long as the mobs have a certain specific pathing after they spawn randomly then this role CAN be accomplished. And there are so many tricks to pulling that I could spin your head with (yanking, yo-yo'n, bodying, reversing, splitting, etc etc)...but the role has to be created first. There has to be the need for it.

Support class - this can easily be done with skills alone. Where the class's self dps is not the greatest but not the worst either. They add enough dps to all the other group members that the group's total dps can be better depending on composition than if just adding another top dps class. And usually support classes can do either crowd controlling and/or pulling roles.

I just gave SotA THREE new roles to perform that would stretch the diversity of the classes to a whole new level. Do you think SotA will utilize this??? I guess a 'girl' can dream...

 

Assassin - Pass unseen as you weave your way through hundreds of unimportant minions. Find the leader. Wait for him to be alone, and then ambush him with a one-shot one-kill super weapon you've spent weeks crafting. Then slip away without being discovered. Like a ghost.

 

I hope not.

First, this is a classless system, so we can't think in terms of class (although I wish we could too). Secondly, when it comes to PVE, sure whatever. But when it comes to PVP having "roles" is not (or should not) be a goal - not ever.

Command and Control
Tank
Buff
Etc...

These are not terms that suit PVP well. People that think in these terms do not help PVP. I know your post may not have been about PVP, and I'm not trying to bash you or your ideas. But because I care very much about PVP, I hope none of these ideas or this way of thinking is incorporated into SOTA. PVP has to be about balance, and that means no one person is going to be "the healer" or "the tank". In PVP there has to be many ways to be successful in combat. Being an "assassin" type that uses stealth and one shot kills is a fine example of that, but it needs to be balanced relative to all the other "builds" so that everyone doesn't have to be an assassin to compete.

That is all.

 

One of the biggest problems in creating new roles is in making them simultaneously solo capable AND integrating them into group play.

If you don't make them solo capable, well, how many people will WANT to play a character that cannot go out unsupported? And how many of those will be able to find leveling buddies to get them all the way to maximum capacity in their chosen role as an accessory?

It's easy to introduce powers and challenges that justify a new role in group play, BUT, what happens when a group doesn't bring your new type of character? Will the lack of a teleporter type character leave the group stranded during major battles? Will the lack of a transmuter overwhelm them with hostile environments against which they have no defense?

If so, you've created a required role, but increased the difficulty of constructing groups. If not, you've created an unnecessary luxury class that many players will opt not to play.

In soloing, It's assumed that every character type will be able to deal SOME damage, and to mitigate SOME damage, and the question becomes "Can I deal lethal damage to the enemies I face before they deal lethal damage to me?" In the case of a DPS type, this is a sprinting race, trying to hit insane numbers quickly. In the case of a tank or healer, it's an endurance race as you keep mitigating what the enemy throws at you while slowly getting in your own hits. The play difference between a tank and a healer in solo play is actually very slight, as both are forced to a 'slow and steady' approach.

What other ways of playing can we build? Anything needlessly complex will shoot itself in the foot, anything too powerful will take over the game completely.

I've seen dozens of applications of the DPS method, and several interesting tank and heal types, but a new type that ISN'T a tank, or a healer, and yet isn't pure DPS? What function will it serve?

Now, we HAVE seen suggestions here that I really liked. The idea of bringing people not for their combat skill, but for their production skills. Gatherers, Refiners, and Crafters who had to be escorted and defended while they performed the intricate steps of collecting a super rare resource, transmuting it into a usable form, and or shaping it into functional equipment. I like the idea that high level acts in this process can only be performed in exceptional and very dangerous locations, possibly DURING combat, providing group encounters with new and interesting challenges.

If there is a 'maximum group size' then we would have to trade between THD functional combatants and the GRC combine, providing six roles that must be filled in some way. This would then make exceptional characters, who can accomplish more than the average character, more valuable in that they can free up spaces in the group and thus increase the group's overall yield.

But someone who brings a whole new role to the fight? It's starting to seem like a unicorn. Much sought but never found.

I'd LIKE to see it...

 

PvP exists just fine in games with classes. The problem with MMORPG classes in SOTA is not PvP but that it's also supposed to act as a single player game.

 

I'd like to see a more buff others role. The Helper. The one who can lay AoE with buffs where you want to stay close within their aura.

This gives a couple of advantages to MMO combat in that it creates a bonus for party cohesion and movement.

 

There are crowd-control skills in the many of the magic trees:

Air - Gust
Chaos - Confusion
Sun - Blind, Dazzling Rays
Moon - Animal Charm, Moon Beams
Water - Ice Field

Someone can pick those skills with a few others and play a crowd-controller if they wish.

This is just another version of crowd control that can be accomplished by the main tank and crowd-control players properly communicating with each other. Mob pathing will be refined from what it is, but don't expect a pathing model that creates an entire class role...I don't see the need for it.

As can everything else you've stated thus far.

You just explained three roles that players in SotA can already accomplish with the skills that are already included in pre-alpha. It's up to the players to utilize this. The reason people stick with the tank/dps/healer roles so tightly is because they're the easiest to understand, and the easiest to play. Folks wanting more of a challenge are more than welcome to switch up their skills accordingly.

You want diversity of roles and play styles? It's already here. Just because people are themselves stuck into the Holy Trinity of MMO roles, that doesn't mean that the game is flawed.

 

@Jack Knyfe Nailed EXACTLY what I was going to say - you are not asking for skills just something that can EASILY be accomplioshed with the skills in the Game.

What you are asking for is MOR skills that would emphasize these type of templates - like barding skills in UP have Buffs, anf other sach ideas - and to these I say NO - Sorry.

Perhaps after we have a up and running game something like this could be worked on but for now work on and with what we have.

If this is in some way PvP related well then NO and NO in the future - PvP is PLAYER vs PLAYER the ablity to fight an thinking human - no need to have someone behind the fight adding or retracting from that battle!!

 

I'm not trying to argue here but you are absolutely wrong. Even if these skills ARE IN GAME, it doesn't mean these roles will be a necessity. If the mobs are grouped loosely and aren't much of a threat (which has nothing to do with the players and everything to do with the developers) then they don't need to be separated or split which is what a 'puller' does. In these scenarios the tank runs in and grabs all the mobs, or some, and the group usually just dps's the mobs down. I can't recall the last time anybody else other than the tank pulled a group of mobs. Which is a shame because instead of just sitting there waiting to dps a group of mobs another player could actually have something more to do and pull to the tank which is a lot of fun if you ask me.

Players DO NOT create these roles. Plain and simple. The developers have to create a NEED for them. You can have all the skills in the world but if you are not endangered to the point to use those skills then most times you won't. Why have someone else engage the mobs when the tank can just do it just as easy and just as fast.

More roles just means the game is more diverse which usually gives the game more value. Win win right?

 

I understand that choosing something like a 'support' class for a solo game may not get you far but only since this game IS supposed to have a SOLO campaign. BUT with not having 'classes' pre determined then there won't be any 'accessory' classes that go to waste right? The classless system would allow for any player to create a class that works for them, solo or not. Some of the skills may go unused but I guess when you have an MMO that has a 'solo' game type then you are going to have some rather odd situations.

And of course you would never design a game with a 'role' that was required for the group to succeed. I mean all those groups without the 'tank' role and all those groups without a healer in eq and wow and rift must have been pretty successful right?? ;-) just kidding And no offense but you will never see me agree with that way of thinking. Thinking that creating new classes and roles is impossible and/or fruitless. In my eyes all it has to do is be created.

I've ALWAYS thought that mixing adventurers with crafters and what-not was a great idea that should be implemented in MMOs. Sort of like a 'horde' mode for crafters. Where a group takes a crafting class such as a blacksmith down deep into a cave where the group finds something like a magical anvil crafting station to make powerful gear on while the group fights off hordes of mobs. If the mobs get to the crafter it messes up his combines. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. THIS IS CREATING A NEW 'ROLE'. It CAN be done, it just has to be created.

 

What is the point of your response I ask? Jack Knyfe is wrong as well as you. By your reasoning the 'tank' role is implemented in game simply because the game has a bunch of skills and the players use them. WRONG!! The developers create mobs that hit hard enough that a player needs to mitigate that damage somehow. The developers create mobs that get angry at other players that keep pestering them so a player has to grab the mobs attention. In the same sense the player has to keep that mobs attention. The developer creates mobs that have special attacks that a player has to block. etc.

I'm not asking for players to have more skills. I'm asking for the developers to create more mobs with new tactics so that players have more to do. I'm not trying to be a prick but what's the point of saying to my ideas "and to these I say NO- Sorry" All I'm trying to do is add more value to the game.

 

In a classless system, there are no roles except for what the players choose to be.

Portalarium isn't going to create a need for specific roles because it goes against the idea of a classless system.

Your argument is invalid, and no amount of saying that we're wrong is going to change that.


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while I like the spirit of the op I do have to defend sota's classless system.

First thing to remember is that there arnt any challenging mobs right now, that is going to change and when it does the way you handle them will change as well.

crowd control, this role already exists, if you disagree do some pvp.

pulling, this too is taking place in pvp, there is an art too it and those that are good at it play a vital role in the way group combat is currently playing out.

support, i have to honestly give sota a big fat fail here as there needs to be the ability to cast buffs and debuffs on other player for this to even be possible, which currently isnt possible.

 

I never said it couldn't be done, I'm much in favor of the effort. As for creating support skills, yes of course I'd like to see that. All of it comes down, as you pointed out, to the devs introducing challenges that call for multiple roles. If they say a mob needs multiple players worth of damage to bring down, that's easy enough. But what if a mob is made that requires someone to constantly slow it? What if the mob gets a freely spammed fire dot on all combatants? Then a player needs to bring slowing attacks, and purifies, and fire resists. THAT creates roles for the fights. And the more esoteric the requirements, the more and more intricate the roles. The more esoteric the roles, the more demands are placed on the players, the less freedom they have in choosing their spec. If a talent is needed, and you volunteer to bring it to the table, only it's at the end of a tree, and using it properly calls for over 50 ability points. That's a big investment just to fill a role. Now imagine that the battle, or the zone, calls for five such roles, all separate and different? We can just keep going, adding more and more specialized roles, and the end result will be the same:

The more roles are called for, the harder it will be to fill them to launch on that planned group adventure.

As a subnote, the current version of respec is fairly forgiving, but still a notable expense in the case of a player who wishes to use an alternate build to satisfy such requirements. Many players have expressed a desire to have respec become far more restrictive and expensive, and I must say I agree with that sentiment. When I found a way to build a character that could fulfill multiple roles with one set of talents in WoW during the burning crusade expansion, it was a source of pride. I had used the available resources and several clever shortcuts to make a character that could tank, heal, or dps as needed, and that versatility served me daily. When the changes of WotLK expansion took away the very talents I had used in my clerverness, while simultaneously giving everyon the ability to maintain multiple specs, it completely invalidated that effort. I want a world in which we must build what we want to be and are then stuck with it, where respeccing your character to match mine is expensive and difficult, and requires that you give up being who you were before. I believe that this will increase the value of all given characters, but it will also further complicate having multiple roles required for group adventure.

I LOVE the idea of creating and calling for specialized roles in group play, because I've had the experience of moving as part of a team, the communication, the dynamic response of real humans not opposing me, but working with me, supporting me when I stumble and calling out for my help as needed. I've had the experience of forming, organizing and guiding such a group, and that is something I would gladly do again. It's much more impressive if each player has a specific role to play instead of just being a gaggle of 20 or 50 or 100 players who dogpile onto the challenges.

No, NoobieDoo, I am not opposing creating a multitude of roles, I hope for it. I just recognize that the more work is done on creating those specialized roles, the more they create awesome talents that we need to bring with us for challenge A) as intended, the more it becomes problematic when those talents unexpectedly influence challenge B), the unintended side effect. And heaven help us if challenge B) turns out to be PvP.

 

Lots of room for group-friendly skills to be added to the game, IMHO. I hope this is an area that gets some attention in the trees in the future.

 

The bottom line, at least for me, is that there simply isn't enough diversity in the current skill trees.

I don't find myself anguishing to any extent over what path to take like I have in many single and multiplayer RPGs. Depth of character (or class, if you want to call it that) development and the desire for uniqueness is core to a rewarding experience. Everybody wants to be able to stand out in the crowd in games as in real life.

Current state is kinda "meh", as they say...so I hope to see more options down the line...

 

While first and foremost I recognize that at this stage they simply haven't had the time to properly differentiate the various trees, I have to agree. It seems like a master of ANY random tree of magick WILL have a close range instant cast, a quick cast single target beam, and a summon. Take the time to visit Earth magick for some good passive DR, fire magick, Death magick, and or Air magick to get an AOE, and you are a perfectly generic mage with some custom color on your spell effects.

I'd rather see MAJOR differences. Not every tree needs a summon, and even those summons that exist should fill different roles. Instead of letting someone build a summoner mage who stands back and nukes while his pet tanks for him out of ANY spell tree that they like, we should recognize that if even ONE tree offers that build, anyone who wants to incorporate "summoner mage who stands back and nukes while his pet tanks for him" into their build can spend points in that one tree. At which point the other eight schools of magick can be used to create more interesting strategems, more diversity.

Likewise, in the melee and armor trees, I see very little making swords different from hammers, or plate different from chain. There's a big difference between polearms and shields at least.

 

This really needs some love. If we are to have proper battlefields we need AOE buffs. Like the talked about shield buff that also protects others.
They did change the strength armor glyph to target others so I'm hoping that is a sign that Chris recognize this as well.

 

I did not not know about the change to inner strength, thanks Spoon.

 

NoobieDoo really hit on the key word. Diverse. The overall theme of discussions here seems to be diversity. Diversity of skills and bid. To enable that, the trees really must be different mechanically, not just cosmetically. One issue now seems to be that most magic trees have the same skills, with different names/lighting effects. Those are melee range, short range low damage, longer range higher damage, some special skill, and then elemental summoning. A lightning mage isn't that much different than a fire mage isn't that much different than a frost mage, except that that different elements may apply slightly different effects (DOT vs. slowing, etc). Are those secondary effects enough to feel like builds are different? Dunno. My feeling now is that with elementals for example, it looks fairly similar despite tree. But what if one tree summoned one stronger mobile melee pet, another summoned three faster but weaker ranged shooting pets, and another summoned a stationary ballista for the battlefield. That would feel a little different. Without that kind of micro-differentiation to make the skill lines feel and look different mechanically, it feels like the trinity for this game is going to be melee, ranged, and general magic.