Proposal for "radical" change to combat system

I agree with this entirely. WoW's combat system is so boring and frankly people just spam a specific pattern of attacks rather than actually reacting to the battle.

 

My thinking is that the combat system needs to be interesting for both types of players SotA wants to reach - the MMO-fans and the SP-fans. The combat system we have now is a system that is designed for a traditional MMORPG, a system that is overly complex and overburdened and is interesting for those players only who like to analyze every tiny bit and need every information on screen they can get - for whatever reason. On the other hand, RG wants to have an immersive game with so few UI elements als possible - which he himself has said. What we have now is the exact opposite. This game caters more and more to the MMO traditionalists. A group that gets smaller and smaller - even WoW loses many players. But SotA goes more and more into this direction - a direction so many move away from.
I don't want separate combat systems for SP and MMO but I want an interesting combat system, something that sets SotA apart, something that makes this game unique.
Thinking back to the old Ultimas every game was unique, it stood out. There were no elemets from other games pushed into the game just so that it was also in there. But with SotA we are going this route. What is unique regarding a locked combat hotbar? What makes SotA stand out in regards to combat? What makes SotA stand out in regards to the UI? When I look at the game right now I see a standard MMO - is this really what SotA should be?

 

1. Tumble should simply be tied to combat rolling.
2. Dodge should simply allow the ability to quickly move out of the way when attacked.
3. Auto-attack by pressing toggle attack key (which is currently useless) instead of going into option menu
4. Add the option of replacing character name with a targeting reticule
5. Add MMO Interact/Steer [Character's POV] If held down, this key will allow the user to steer their avatar in the direction of the camera. Currently changing the character's direction requires moving the character, breaking stillness, and is probably the primary problem with the combat system.
6. Set 4 shortcut keys for hand usage.
   1. main-hand attack (with weapon or spell implement)
   2. off-hand attack (with shield, weapon, spell implement, or buckler [basically brass knuckles with a small shielding guard and maybe sharp studs which is traditionally the weapon used to train dual wielding])
   3. main-hand defense (parry)
   4. off-hand defense (block or parry)
   5. Defense could be a single toggle switch followed by 6.1 and/or 6.2, however having two separate keys provides more options
7. Many skills and combos can be simplified by tying them to keys or situations.
   1. Riposte is simply an attack quickly following a defensive move (current animation is ridiculous [Why is the character looking at the player after the attack?])
   2. Ranged spells (like Fire arrow) that are simply ranged versions of their prerequisite skill (Flame fist) should simply vary in focus cost based on target range
   3. Holding down(charging) a hand key can modify spell properties like area and power. For example one hand charging could target the spell on the caster (Immolation) while the other charging would target an enemy (Fireball), and charging both could create a mass area effect (Ring of Fire).
   4. Pressing both defense hand keys at the same time could either cross swords if dual wielding swords, create a defensive V shape when wielding sword and shield, or making an intimidating swash and drumming noise on a buckler (think triangle or wood block), and could also be used for other percussion instruments like coconuts or cymbals (which could also be sharp deadly weapons). I think most percussion instruments are simply safer versions of old weapons.
   5. If weapons are sheathed then the characters should be able to defend themselves with bare-hands, instruments, or tools (if attacked while gathering then the tool should replace the current instrument unless another slot is added)
8. Light armor skill tree should be changed to Martial Arts and the Shield tree changed to Offhand.
9. Four fully optional Hot-bars
   1. Overland utility bar
   2. Non-combat utility bar
   3. Offensive variable bar
   4. Defensive variable bar
   5. Ability to choose which bar slots can be hidden and under what circumstances they are visible. For example a mage could use locked spells on a half-hidden Offensive bar with random deck slots only available when their wand is unsheathed.
   6. Able to move visible slots around based on play style.
   7. The above versatility of keys and situations adds greater option in play style with features from both fighting games and first person shooters along with less reliance upon hot-bars.
   8. Players can play with as many hot slots as they want. For example a player may want something similar to the Offensive bar in an earlier release. The OP could have three visible random slots. All other available slots would be hidden and either empty or accessible through shortcut.
10. Clickable items within variable sizing bags (of different names) with three different displays. Bags could be shown as lists, physical objects with sort-able sections, or as a deck of cards for use with hot bar slots. Therefore you could have a bag/deck for creatures, food, thrown weapons/traps, and even spells (however they may need to first be written on a piece of paper)
11. Add-on / pledge armor and weapons should be better than starting items. In the case of stretch goal armor (which have not achieved their goals) they should at the very least be the same as starter equipment unless there are plans for cosmetic slots.

 

Gnarley radical righteous tubular proposal OP. I personally like the Elder Scrolls Online mechanic. Right mouse click to block, left mouse click to attack, middle mouse click to whatever, it really caused me to be immersed more than I would have if it was simply click and choose special attack. Any improvement I'm for, as to whether any changes will take place. I will say this. I'm not a picky player when it comes to combat, I mean, u7 is my favorite game of all time and no doubt, the combat was real-time, and real-time at the time was fairly new for the RPG and it was clunky but it didn't bother me in the slightest. After playing RPGs for 20+ years you can see what's fun, what's not, and I'm still on the fence as to whether I like it or not, which probably means I lean toward being iffy on it. Fun factor is intuitively a no brainer when it comes to combat for me, so I either like it immediately, get used to it and like it, or the other spectrum. I enjoyed UO's method. I enjoy ESO's method. This isn't a die hard combat game, I've noticed, it isn't "life is feudal", I would lean toward enjoying a more organic, realistic combat system to one involving clicking icons, cards. It isn't up to us though. But in the end, it will be up to the masses.

 

Exactly. Maybe we shoud look at it from this perspective.
Will it be for the masses? Is a traditional WoW-hotbar combat for the masses? Is a game that is overly complex and "smites" the players with so many windows, bars, numbers, texts etc. something that can really be enjoyed by many players? By so many players that this game can last a long time? We do have a dedicated community here, many here on the forums are MMO traditionalists. We can see this by the features they want to have in this game. But are those Features that can really reach a mass of players? Are those community members pushing for a traditional MMO enough to support this game?
I did show SotA to a friend of mine who loves RPGs and even retro RPGs. But he didn't like SotA - because of the UI and because "it looked and felt like a traditional MMO". He won't be the only one who will think this way. He loves deep and complex games but also games that are not overly complicated and not overburdened with things that just cater to some extre-hardcore gamers. I can understand him. I fear that SotA will be bashed by "release" for not being innovative enough and for offering overly complicated systems. A game can be deep and complex without becoming complicated. But the combat system alone is so MMORPG-like and so traditional MMORPG-like that I fear that this system alone will push many players away. Not just the single player fans but also those MMO fans who are fed up with such systems and are looking for something really new. Will those who remain be enough to support SotA for a long time?

 

Micro-masses is more what I mean. Even old-school-micro-masses. The masses in the micro-scale that are fans of the game. But I'm sure they'd love it to be 1/1000 as popular as WoW. It clearly isn't for the mainstream-masses, and never will be. A review I read described this game pretty well when it said 'SotA gives no "hoots"' in terms of being an old school RPG. To me I think it does give hoots, but that's because I'm a fan of old school games, so from a new-comer to RPGs in general I can see they would think that and see that. And the planned vision won't change, but the tiny details that weren't set in stone can possibly change. Let's just hope it changes for the better, combat-wise.

 

This would be even worse than the system we have know.
You would spent ages looking on your bars and whats going on i dont like that at all.

 

Therefore no bars. Just three slots with special attacks. Regular attacks, blocks, dodges are in real-time and active.
Draw a card from he deck, use it as a special attack or not.

 

IMHO: The overall perception of the target demographic will be that such a system is too simple, and/or won't work due to latency issues.
The nature of skill trees demands large numbers of skills, and seamless access to them. The only thing that comes to mind when reducing access to skills is console emulation or console port. As a PC enthusiast, the last thing I want is a console interface on a PC game.

Heck, there's even an argument to be made that the entire random deck system flies in the face of skill trees and use-based advancement. But then again, we're in pre-alpha, so maybe they have a plan to address such glaring design conflicts.

 

"I hate skill bars... so I propose we use TWO skill bars!"

That's not a reason to change it.

 

Not? Trying something new, being innovative instead of treading old ground and beating a dead horse is no reason to change something?
For me the question is: What does SotA want to be? Something new and unique? Somthing people say "Wow, they really made a change on the gaming market?"
Or is it something that people will say about: "Hotbar combat? I've seen this before. Skilltress with many combat skill, check, seen it a hundred times. The Interface? Nothing new here..."?

 

It really isn't.

How about doing something that works for the game instead of doing something for the sake of doing something new?
I'm not saying that what we have works super great for SotA but just saying "this is old, therefore it's bad" is the wrong approach to design.

Those who focus to do things just to shake the industry often fail (miserably, I might add) at delivering a good gaming experience.

 

Agreed. The first attempt at "new for the sake of new" was the random placement of skills on the UI. This didn't go over well, and the compromise is locked skills. That everyone isn't raving about how incredibly awesome the "new" deck system is, from the hilltops and gaming news sites, is evidence they stumbled in delivering "the awesome".

A modern example is the attempt to change the UI in windows 8 and 8.1. Failed terribly. No business over 50 employees wanted to do that upgrade, and as a result, most companies of any size are sticking with windows 7 until 2020. New was not better. Microsoft has been off the rails since Vista, but that's another discussion.

<IMHO>
Sometimes, new is better. But you have to tread very carefully in UI design.
Another example is iphone vs. android. iphone has one button. Android has three. Many people that have had an android device and tried an iphone feels hamstrung. Many people that have an iphone that try an android feel liberated.
Same goes for PC vs. console. PC you have the mouse with up to over a dozen buttons, over 100 keys on the keyboard, and a massive high resolution, high frame-rate screen. From a PC gamer perspective, a console feels restricted, to some. Some console gamers, once they try PC games, again feel liberated.
</IMHO>

Giving PC players more options regarding the camera, the UI, and how they play the game is typically seen as a positive experience, or "better", subjectively. Restricting it or reducing it? Not so much.

EDIT: Read this. It's 100% applicable to SOTA, and the current direction the game seems to be going, and even had the same random skill availability mechanic.

 

On the other hand we get a game with mechanics that people have played over and over again.

This makes me wonder: Why should gamers come over from "their" MMORPG if the game mechanics in SotA are nearly the same? There is a new story to experience, ok but doesn't this just lead to players "farming" the story and quests and then return to "their" MMO where their friends and community are?

Isn't this exactly what happens to most new MMOs? Gamers play the content and return to the MMO they played for years as the mechanics are the same. They are used to this game and their friends are there. So why stay in another MMO that plays nearly the same as the other one? The new MMOs then struggle to somehow survive...

 

Ah, the joy of trying to discuss inovation... which is what was asked of us when we joined... "help collaborate to making this game more fun with dev+" good way to boost sales when you don't mention the real hard-coded limitations like the hive minded like to toot.

My system to absolve all latency problems was either never read or never even considered to read, people are comfortable in the industry with these limitations because they serve as a good excuse to do the same thing everybody does and when something dosen't work, somebody has probably struck the same problem elsewhere and thus the solution must be pre-made with a unity quick fix for only a few hundred bucks...

Nothing Lord Darkmoon proposes is "new" IMO its all features we loved to see but since technology devolved because of stupid set in stone cloud mechanics (which can be changed but with a surhuman skill like the feat UO was in the day) we are reluctant to even mention the issues.

I have been vocal about this game moving towards a "theme park" "ultima tycoon" kind of vibe which in my case totally absolves any attempts at roleplay. Said "vibe" pierces through the game experience, in which the scenes and npc seem to lack love. I'll be writing my own feedback about these eye and mind sores even if I know they will be diminished to their basic logical values whilst they are in fact very profound philosophical questions.

Anyways, I do understand your post Lord Darkmoon, but at the end of the day lady British won't say to her husband that she wont cook because the game isn't old school/innovative enough for her taste. Love is unconditional... isn't it ?

Status quo in EA's UO is the same and in SOTA, there must be housing, bosses, linear quest lines with journal assist, shallow npc AI... and of course all that lacks is compensated with the greatness of our community.

I don't mean to sound so discouraged because I am not, I'm looking forward to that amazing story which will keep me on the edge of my seat. I'll just swallow my pride and forget all I learned when I programmed for OSI and EA, trash all my emotional roots and disintegrate all my core values that were sadly confirmed by the meta-story behind the current sims/RMT game model.

I'll do it, cause I unconditionally backed this project, not out of the goodness of my heart ; in a world where I'm unsure if theres a distinction to be appreciated anymore.

 

You're taking all this from a marketing viewpoint. I would discourage that train of thought but, instead of arguing about it, I'm going to try to reach a "halfway" point between our viewpoints:

Take a look at Blizzard Entertainment. As much of a Blizzard fanboy I may be, I can honestly say that they don't have a single innovative bone in their collective bodies.

• The Warcraft (RTS) games originated from Westwood's Dune II and the art style is taken from Warhammer ~ not surprising as it was supposed to be a Warhammer game to begin with.
• Their Starcraft series is taken from Warhammer 40k.
• The Diablo series wasn't developed by them; it was done by Condor which they acquired and renamed Blizzard North.
• Hearthstone is pretty much like every other TCG out there.
• Heroes of the Storm is a DotA and LoL clone.
• World of Warcraft is essentially a EverQuest clone.
• Every WoW feature (Battlegrounds, phasing, pet battles) basically came years after others have done it, the MMO giant is just adapting to stay on top.
• Battle.net was like every other internet service at the time except it was free.

So how is Blizzard Entertainment such a giant game development company? Because they make quality products. They take what they like from other games and then they refine it to perfection.

• Clicking on !@#$ feels good.
• Their games hardly ever crashed at all.
• They're all easy to set up and get running (on older machines, no less).
• Their art is amazing.
• They remove any design "FAT" that risk make the game more like a chore or deviate from the core concept. (Heroes of the Storm's mechanic of gaining levels for the entire team is a good example)

You make a game as refine as it can possibly be and it doesn't matter if it's another Bejeweled or Skyrim. It will be a success nonetheless and fans will be able to show off the qualities. The innovation, then, isn't in the idea but in its execution instead.

What Portalarium promised is an modern take on old-school views. THAT's why you bought SotA and that's why others will buy it as well. Combat in SotA isn't boring because of the "done to death" action bar, but because they didn't do it right.

 

But even World of Warcraft is losing more and more players. Doesn't it look like that more and more players are fed up with those systems?

Hmmm, all of this has become really negative... I really hope that SotA will be a great game and very successful. I had just hoped that it would be "different" from the standard and more "unique" in terms of gameplay mechanics. I always loved it when a new game was released (back in the 90s mostly) and everything was new and I had to figure out how everything worked...

 

Maybe it will become so Lord Darkmoon, maybe the player will once again support King Brittish ideas instead of others in the dev team who feel justified to fiddle because a few elite pvp guilds said they prefer said mechanics.

That is really the issue here I feel ; King Brittish is being told, yea cool ideas bro but latency, but players love WoW, look we have entire guilds who subscribed because we'll reproduce their beloved... we have to remain pg-13 to attract more players and be sustainable kinda logic.

You think King British thought twice about giving you the option to kill unarmed children in one of his ultima games ? No it was old school, it was shocking but it got people talking about the game (direct quote).

Portalarium is supposed to admire his unicity and courage yet I feel that every postmortem a nail in the coffin is being drawn. Move aside old man is what I hear and see...

 

I don't see the Dev's going in a different direction at this point, I would like to see the current system Finished, and then we can talk about changing it... I happen to like a "hybrid" system and don't consider it "button mashing"... And I would like to know what developers are doing anything different, kind of like designing a new "mouse trap" when the old one works just fine...