PvP issues

I just dont think open PvP is viable in this game by its current design.

I flagged this weekend and ran into several issues.

I dropped everything on my toon, went with basic cheap chain and small piles of reagents.

The Oracle system is just broken. I jumped into my normal farming area. After a few kills it looked clear and I then quickly get ganked by a group a 4 people who then ran off to farm again.

So I res and then realize that they got 3 of my items and the Oracle wanted something ridiculous like 2K gold to get it back. I really had no choice since they took my entire stack of mandrake, all my recall scrolls and by chain boots. So I was forced to pay it or leave all the way back to my chest to get new mandrake.

So I pop my stealth with the plan of at least jumping one of the guys.

I try to roll into the zone with stealth and fail since every mob sees me an pops me out of stealth. I split all of my regents into small stacks hopping that if the Oracle takes stuff, maybe they only get a small stack of 5 mandrake this time. After some time I finally make it to them. Target the guy I want to kill and run out towards them (they are on some Cultist). All a sudden, 100 yards from them I mysteriously pop out of stealth (no idea why), they see me and run over and gank me. Once gain, the oracle takes a bunch of stuff I needed or wanted to charge me like 2500 gold. So I wave the fee this time and realize that I has lost all my recall scrolls, chain boots and something else random.

I quickly realize the flaws of the game. I really want to go back in and take more shots at the guys but I simply cant afford paying the oracle for my stuff and I also cant afford to lose even simple gear (since I would be running around without gear on), I also realize that I dont want to have to run all the way back to my chests (bank, lot or PoT) to replace the stuff the oracle just took if I go this route. In the end, it really isn't fun unless you are that group of 4 people exp farming and ganking anything that enters the area.

I just dont think this system works and there are ways to make it work.

I cant see how any of the PvP zones being built will help this. I see myself getting in a big party on one side, running out and quickly dying and that death by game design cripples me in some way (gold, loss of equipment and reagents (which means I cant cast)).

What can be done? I want to be able to PvP continuously. PvP generally involves lots of dying and needing to quickly reset to get back into it.

 

Experiment successful , fresh novice PVP meat added to scenes for gankers by raising exp 25%.

 

The biggest problem with the current strategy to increase PVP is that it incentivises people who really don't want to PVP to flag for PVP. They need a strategy that makes people who want to PVP spend more time doing so, while not giving any reason for people who don't want to flag for PVP, flag for PVP.

Most MMO's I've played make this mistake.

 

I think what you're suggesting is that solo PvP players have no real chance in popular farming zones. I've found this to be the case as well. So your options are find more people, find another zone, or if you're lucky, find another time of day to harvest solo in your preferred zone. Whenever this happens to me I ask around my friends hoping to party enough to take whoever's camping the zone, but there is generally not a whole lot of interest to take on even 2 players. Seems like Deep Ravenswood is starting to become what the shardfalls were meant to be. Starman, we need a grassroots organization who come to each other's aid in theses cases!

 

I think a large raiding party taking over a location and killing a solo pvp who dares to take them on is perfectly reasonable.

If Negan didn't have the numbers, he also could not do what he did. (Do I need to explain this reference

I never played Ultima, but as far as I am aware there was a big PvP element to it. Lots of people wailed about getting ganked and losing their Sunday best suit of armor with the realistic dragon blood splashed. And as this is a spiritual successor, I expect similar actions.

But the devs may not get the balance straight way, it doesn't mean it's broken, just needs tweaking.

There absolutely needs to be a place where greed and fear clash in a wailing, gnashing of teeth. You have been presented with an interesting problem, now how to solve it.
Meanwhile if we feed back to the devs our experiences, maybe it will become something you like.

But not being able to solo a location where a bunch of bad guys are hanging out, ready to gank the smush out of you, is not unfair, it's fantastic.

 

I dont have any issues with that at all.

My issue is that I want to take them on (solo if need be).

The problem is that with the Oracle system, its basically impossible, expensive, problematic which leads to it being unfun.

 

So let me get this right. You want to PvP so.....

- Ditch good armour and put cheap stuff on (doesn't really make sense)
- Reduce number of regs carried (makes sense)
- Die to 4 guys grouped up....was always going to happen unless you were ridiculously high level with decent armour and they were at best average.
- You go back for some weird reason

I don't really see the problem here other than you went back in the actual belief you would achieve something.

Is ganking an issue? no.....that is what open PvP is. Is the price you have to pay reasonable......I think it needs balanced more but a couple of k isn't exactly the world and all.....and you dont even have to pay it, just make more cheap stuff.

 

There has to be a bad effect to PvP imo else it just turns into a fps light. A loss of equipment/consumables etc is a necessity for when something like factions are in or more of a reason to PvP, like land control and rewards for guilds/groups.

 

I didn't say that. Might have deleted the wrong quote Tag.

 

Maybe adjust the ransom down to where a PVP death costs ~1000 to 1500 gold. Then we could afford to die more, and have more fun.

 

Also, not pay for items you don't want back. Pick what you pay for?

 

Im.. hoping that OP is basically saying that Stealth has issues and bugs that need fixing. Because then i can throw my towel behind him 100%.

 

The option of paying 2k if I particularly want to keep the one item that dropped is more than a fair compromise to me. If they'd gone down the route some wanted with full loot and no remedy, the only suit I'd ever wear in a shardfall zone is Birthday.

 

Don't flag PVP if the scenes you want to farm have PVP groups and you're alone. The 25% is definitely not worth it in that case.

 

The 25% MAYBE makes up for the competition in mobs/resources vs SPO FriendsOnline.. I just see that as bait, and for those who know me, im ok with that. Now.. to the only thing that stood out in that post to me..

So in my mind I have to ask, is stealth working as intended? What is your move silent skill currently? Did they ever fix the Aggro issue with stealth in certain zones? Did yo accidently swing your eapon from a charge or free attack ( this removes stealth).

I'm working a new guy as we speak and of course he will have move silent as high as I can muster it.. My last one about 8 months ago had around 130 Move silent and I hardly ever had issues with mob aggro.

@Chris Any known issues with the stealth mechanic?

 

PVP has a number of problems, not just the ones you correctly address.

1. There's no way to ensure you are ever taking on a fair amount of risk. If you enter a scene with less than three people, you can be overwhelmed with more than three opponents. This arms race is wonderful for people that like to fight in groups (guilds) but horrible for people that are less social (like me) and wish to fight solo. Not all the people fighting in these groups are worthless cowards, but a lot of them are and would never dare to fight on their own without the help of their friends. I'm only writing this so you understand that I respect you for trying to take one of them out on your own, but it's a broken system that rewards the worst type of pvp.

The fact of the matter is, when you play an FPS there are group vs group modes for a reason. Because no one wants to play 64 v 1 mode. What Portalarium should do is use selective multiplayer to provide areas of play where you can't get ganked just because you want to play solo. There should be instances of scenes that allow for 1v1 mode in an effort to promote more fair fights.

2. Stealth is also a huge issue and I'll just go ahead and call out @Chris on this one (although I'm sure it's a team decision) because he's made a lot of comments over the years that he doesn't want stealth to something where you can't attack the person even though you know they're right there. I don't want that either, but I would like is for stealth to be viable and right now it's really not. It's nice at a distance but as you get close (within range) of any type PVE you're instantly unstealthed. If you cast a spell or use a skill (most of the time) this immediately removes stealth as well. Even begin spells like Night Vision remove stealth. It's infuriating, and one has to wonder if the development decisions that have attempted to keep stealth from being overpowered have made it useless by design. Stealth doesn't just need polished, it needs redesigned in a few very important ways.

• Firstly, the Vanish spell should absolutely make players vanish. *Poof* as in no one can see them! There's no graphical camouflage, it's pure invisibility. If someone wants to lob an AOE attack in that general direction, yes of course it should still hit them and cause them to unstealth, but that doesn't mean the skill has to be reduced to a short period of time where you're soon to be seen because you can't move without breaking stealth. I doubt this spell is being used by many on a regular basis and instead they're using shadow form or move silently.
• Secondly, I greatly dislike the use of percentages for PVE to detect stealth. I'm not even sure what it means. Is it a one time check? Is it continuous? Because it feels like eventually every PVE mob will unstealth a player. What needs to happen is players need to be successful once time in the scene until stealth is broken. There should just be a global scene "check" for all mobs based on difficultly of the scene. Simple and much easier to manage for both the players and the devs. In PVP, stealth should never break unless an opponent DOES SOMETHING. Either they click on them, hit them for damage, or use reveal hidden.
• Finally, magic should work better than non-magic, but they should both compliment each other and not do the same thing. Ideally, Move Silently would ONLY make a character not make foot step sounds. That's it. The higher level you were the less sounds and less occasional sounds (like a twig breaking) you could make. It doesn't stealth you, it's an innate skill that cloaks your sounds. Camouflage would also be innate and it would help make you less visible and blend into your surroundings the less you moved. Together with the magic stealth skills, if you had all four you'd be a master of stealth. There's no reason to make the skills and spells do almost the exact same thing. That's lame.

3. Body parts should never be part of the ransom system. Chris already mentioned during a recent hangout that they would be removed from the ransom system, but this hasn't happened yet. The reason this is important is because it helps balance the risk vs. reward of losing in pvp. For example, if someone is removing all their good gear, you would still always get the trophy as proof that you won. Again, this is a great way to show who's pretending to be good at pvp and who actually is.

4. Eventually, people will grow tired of losing "stuff" and the majority will stop bringing it into pvp areas. That's why we need incentives to lure "stuff" into those areas. For example, if they made it so you could only loot what you yourself were willing to risk. If you only where basic crafted junk, well then you only should get to loot basic crafted junk. Problem solved.

5. One of the most overlooked (and I would argue the most important) aspects of pvp is NPC Guards. You can always create thunder dome where there are no rules, but Mad Max isn't going to pass his time there, not by choice. People get dragged into death matches, they don't show up willingly. Case in point, empty shardfalls, empty pvp arenas, empty pvp towns. In order to get people into areas like that (my town included) you have to understand what allows people to feel like that's where they want to be. The answer is NPC guards. If you start to put some structure to some of these places, and provide REASONABLE security, then you'll get all kinds of people showing up.

Here are a few examples of what I'm talking about:

• NPC Guards should prevent players from stealing from other players when they're within range. What do I mean by "prevent"? I mean that if you attempt to steal and a guard is within range you automatically fail and are stunned. This means that any players staying relatively close to a guard can have some assurance that even though they are in a pvp zone the opportunity for someone to steal from them is very very low. It means they can actually talk to people, and watch events instead of just who comes close to them. Players can still steal, they just have to do it where the guards are not around.
• NPC Guards should be extra tough. Why? Because it's easy to get 4 or 5 of your friends together to look for solo players in pvp zones. It's a lot harder (or should be) to find solo players that are not in guarded areas. It helps even the odds. It may not mean that your group of 5 friends won't win, but it does mean that you might lose. That's what's important, the balance of risk vs. reward.
• NPC Guards should have a KOS list. There are some people you just know you don't need hanging around. If it's a POT, well then the KOS list can be determined by the POT owner. But there should be other types of territory were ownership can change and allow the temporary owner the ability to place NPC guards and define who they should kill on sight.

6. Being flagged PVP should be more of an event. Right now we still allow non-flagged people to jump flagged people. That's stupid. We also allow players to be non-flagged by jumping out of a scene. Stupid. We even allow players that are flagged to run around the overland map where they can't be attacked (at least I think they still can't be attacked). Players need the ability to pull other players into a scene if they are both flagged for pvp. Once you leave a scene where you are PVP there should be at least a 15 minute residual timer where you continue to be flagged.

 

Why wouldn't I go back? I want to PvP and Ive been stuck in tourney PvP for a year now. Im high enough level that I have a shot jumping one of them and taking one down before the others kill me, been doing that for years. Its a challenge, that is what PvP is about some times.

Im not sure why, but people here approaching this with a very narrow field of view.

Reason through a possible future PvP zone like the new Buc's Den going in.

Even in the best PvP games we die and we die a lot. When the PvP arena (Bucs Den) goes online it looks like a split screen with one side trying to take the other. This is going to be a lot of death and dying over a long period of time which means that 2K gold hit every death is going to be a real issue.

Right now, I would probably just go into the zone completely naked and set a deck with reagent-less spells.

Im really not sure why people think their has to be a dramatic *loss* component to PvP. If Im out farming, its a loss enough if I am ganked, have to run back to the ank to res and try to start over (avoiding the gankers). People are stuck on this *loss* thing when we should instead be focused on *rewarding* PvP.

There is actually a real important reason why games since UO really have not have a negative impact on people. It just doesn't work with the mechanics or a multi-player game (especially this one)

You cant send someone out to a battle with dozens of people where they are going to die many times and each time it costs them 2K gold per death or they lose 3 inventory items.

This system is extremely limiting probably only to 1 vs 1 solo combat situations which this game is really not even designed for a situation like that to really happen (instancing, etc...)

 

You shouldnt be able to just respawn and attack again. That would make people really angry and lead to total mayhem. Sometimes you just have to realize you cannot win today. Find friends, allies and control spawn together... this is fun and hopefully leads to guild warfare someday.

 

I'm not....my reward in PvP results someone's sadness, rage and loss........I like their loss to be my gain.

 

Sure, I can't fault this. But open PvP in this game based on the way they built it hasn't happened yet in the year I have played. It actually seems best designed to have 1v1 tourneys like The Virtue League. They are building PvP maps now without changing the way they have designed it so I dont see it happening there either. If we continue on with this system, you wont gain anything since no one else will be out PvP'ing.


I guess the best thing for me to do is build a great no-reagent deck, take everything off my char and then flag again so I can afford to actually die. Even that will be tough, I'll need to keep one heavy armor piece on so that I can use my heavy armor skills. Hopefully I dont lose that one items the first death and then lose access to half my skills.

Well, I guess it reminds me of UO days, throw on a grey robe, grab a few deadly poison potions, cure poison, bandages and a fresh new Kryss and go ill stuff... if I die... I dont lose much.