Ramble on about: Death penalties and Loot benefits(now with a breakdown in post two)

Greetings fellow outlanders, Yordic Meyers here again!

Been a while,hasn't it? Does two weeks constitute a while? I think it does.

I have come to you again to Rrrrramble on about some things I think about on a regular basis and some things that get stuck in my craw. Todays subject: Death Penalties and a potential loss of aesthetics.

When I last wrote you it had been MONTHS since I had focused on shroud AT ALL, with the fallout from the mass firing and a heap of family troubles that kept me separate from my computer and my lovely audience I had plenty of time to think about things I liked and disliked about shroud, time to reflect on the time I spent here and the people I met. This break was much shorter(and filled with space blasting goodness) but it presented some interesting concepts for me to digest. Namely that death has no meaning as of R59! Go and die all you want and make sure you have PLENTY of repair kits!

But wait...Death is an ending that, even if you return, should have SOME impact on a player,even a mighty avatar. We should NEVER live in a world where death is pointless! So, I thought i would think about how,using the tech available to the dev team, it could both have a penalty AND solidify us as powerful beings in the world. I thought and thought and that MARVELOUS computer I call a brain spat out the following.

INTRODUCING: The New Britannian Bond

Outlanders are seperate from the people of novia, we are isolated in a timescape that is FAR AND AWAY from the average people of the world. Our time moves far slower than that which is here in novia and it is that way with every being from another world, including the titans. However we are not invincible nor are we immortal, we die and come back but we remain constant. However as we stay here we become more accustomed to the world, it's rules and it's physical attributes and, while our time may seem different our minds adapt and connect to this world.

This was the basis for the 'bond'. A force that binds us to new Britannia and our new bodies. it's what lets us become stronger than we ever could be on earth, wield magics and learn things at an accelerated rate (via experience points) What does this have to do with death penalties? I will tell you!

In this theoretical world our initial bodies have a weaker link to new Britannia than it does after we have been here for a few years. This effect accelerates as we are constantly killed and our spirit forms exposed to the ethereal realm ,which I will call the fade for simplicity sake, that we live in while there. The more we touch the fade the more we attune ourselves to our new home and when we come back from it we are weakened and become ever closer to the commoners. How will this express itself? I will tell you.

Upon death we will incur a penalty to our stats. A semi-permanent debuff of a point or two to STR,DEX or, INT that lingers. No way to clear it via items or magic. If we die again and enter the fade rather than having the debuff reset we incur ANOTHER hit to our stats, onward and onward until we reach a minimum number based on our adventuring level which will indicate our growth as a person in regards to the world. The debuff will also have no expiry time, becoming a permanent piece of us forcing us to further rely on our gear as we get weaker and weaker until we reach our bare minimum for our adventuring level. This tech is displayed in the debuff that appears if you leave a map while in your spirit form, so it wouldn't be difficult to implement.

But what happens when we reach minimum stats? What's to stop us from just staying there with good gear and continuing on normally? Well as we rely more on our gear it begins to wear a lot faster, incurring a double durability while the debuff is at max levels. This would accomplish two things, first it would deter people from staying at their minimum level for fear of their gear becoming unusable and second, it would show the enemies of the world JUST HOW VALUABLE avatar crafted gear really is, that there is something to these masterworks and enchantments that they hadn't seen before. this would be a perfect time to institute a system wherein each enchant and masterwork grants a price buff to each piece of gear that is sold. nothing extravagant, maybe 25 gold per MW and ench but it would make those pieces of gear WORTH somehting to a player who had made a piece of gear that wasn't really worth selling to a player. It wouldn't be a complete waste of resources to only get a couple of weapon scraps and would incentivize selling these weapons to NPC's meaning that they end up in the loot economy and start dropping off of enemies.

But Yordic, it costs us more than 25 gold to enchant or masterwork a piece of gear, it should bring us more money than that! First off, stop whining,it's unbecoming. Second off, what's worth more? a +15 weapon with 10 durability being sold for 500-600 gold or 10-25 metal scraps that sell for 2-3 a piece to a player or go into making hybrid ingots? and why would the average vendor even know what it takes to enchant a piece of gear? Clearly it's a skill lost to them or everyone would have these enchanted weapons already. They don't know the value and the villagers don't really want the gear,they will just sell it to bandits and brigands who will take it with them into battle to 'even the odds' against the outlanders they are trying to weaken so they can be taken down easier. It's a business tactic that any pawnshop owner would be want to use. (insert pawn stars meme here)

In my opinion, which all of these ramble's will be, this shows a world that is thinking and living far better than 'it's an axe, fifteen gold. Take it or leave it.' and could open up some interesting ideas for writing down the line. some of those items would be trash and would be sold back into the economy almost instantly making gold much more available to the world at large. Would it play helter skelter on the economy? ABSOLUTELY! But don't worry, I thought of that too and we can touch on it a little later on. For now I have somethi-

BUT YORDIC! YOU HAVE GIVEN US A SYSTEM THAT PUNISHES US FOR DYING IN A PERMANANT WAY, THATS NOT FAIR TO ANYONE!!!

GEEZE, calm down man made of straw that I have crafted specifically for this argument, have a drink listen for a second,huh? I didn't forget that point,I was just getting to it.

Now, our weakened forms is a problem. Death now has a far heavier toll and only the upper crust with their epic gear can even come close to closing the gap. The bond has been built up in the fade and we don't know how to weaken it. If only there was someone out there who came from another land and knows more about the link between our world and others who could help us on this matter. But wait! The Futura Automaton that we know as the oracle is not from this land and appeared here after the titans arrived and has been here ever since. Maybe she knows something!

The Futura Automaton(I can't remember if that's her actual name) is something the titans brought with them on, and I am writing this from memory, A massive ship that sailed the stars. It contains memories of their voyage and has a large wealth of knowledge. My theory on this is that the titans are gigantic humanoid aliens and after their world was wiped out in a similar cataclysm to our own they were knocked into this dimension and their ship crashed. The oracle is the interface to a massive ships computer that became revered and was moved to Brittany, the seat of power in novia. It doesn't die,it has no soul to pass into the fade and thus the bond has no effect on it. Whats more is it developed for the titans a way to free the body from the buildup of the bond which allowed them to remain as powerful as gods dispite falling and reviving again and again. The oracle would give this to the titans as she is their ship's computer and thus recognizes them as a priority to sustain. This endless power caused the obsidian order to craft incredibly powerful cursed artefacts in order to bring them to thier knees, giving benefits that would appeal to their selves with a curse that plays on the anti virtue to what they represent.

That was a tangent, but I am rambling. While she would GIVE this tonic to the titans she is not as trusting of us adventurers and would instead charge us for the use of this tonic. This price could be paid in one of two ways: Gold coins, the price going up and up as the build up rises, or Experience points with the same increment. This would have a three leveled effect on the world. 1, it would incentivize people to clear early and often, meaning players would be moving around the world more often and going to places where oracles are available, it would cause people to have to guage threats a little better due to survivability, and thirdly it would explain where the EXP and Gold that the oracle gives out daily comes from making the oracle feel more like a part of the world than she does now.

BUT YORDIC, This penalty would be far to harsh on newer players who don't have the ropes learned yet! It's not fair!

It is if you don't implement it for anyone under ADV level 20. Back when seiges were coming out Atos and his team built a check into the system that checked if a player was above level twenty to see if they bypassed a seige or not. that check has been made pointless by the bypassing system that is in place now and is thus useless code. BUT if that check is repurposed into a way to dictate whether a player receicves a debuff on death it would put it in a place that already has data being calculated and make use of something that isn't being used. furthermore it could also be used to check if the player is at the maximum buildup for the bond that their level can allow which would proc the double equipment durability loss.

In my opinion this system,if enabled, would make the world seem far more alive than it is on many levels, it would make death have a meaning and benefit the economy all without having to create a new piece of tech for the entire batch (unless I misread something somewhere). This,more than anything else, would make shroud feel more complete and make players have to think and take the responsibility of balancing death decay out of the hands of the devs and puts it in the hands of the adventurers while giving crafting an actual meaning beyond getting more powerful!

There are dozens of benefits to this system, and like any system there are many flaws that I probably am not seeing. I will also be adding a breakdown of this post in the second post so that my rambling can be entirely skipped other than for entertainment value. Next time I will be rambling on about a loss of asthetics that I saw in the world, what I think could make release cycles work far better with the smaller team and feel more rewarding, and why clarity or, the lack thereof, is causing bugs to persist and how we can stop it.

Untill then, take care,bye bye.

Yordic Meyers

P.S.: The Tater Tot Emperor is once again streaming shroud on a semi regular basis. These ideas all come from thoughts I have either before or during my streams and are broached there so if you want to see these ideas being born out of my chaotic brain drop on by at RPEZach.link!

 

Hey folks, Post two Yordic here. That guy up there is a bit long winded so I came from the future to help you understand what he meant.

A new Death Penalty system:

When you die you incur a debuff that builds up every time you die that takes away a point from one of your stats, STR, DEX, INT. This negative will build up every time you die to a maximum amount based on your Adventuring Level. When you reach that maximum level your gear will take double the durability hit until the debuff is cleared by giving either XP or Gold to the oracle in increments based on your level of buildup.

Alternatively you could give a coto to clear it regardless of buildup level.(Thanks @Steevodeevo )

The debuff could potentially cooldown over an incredibly long period of time to give players a reason to craft and do other things while it's bleeding off. (Thanks @that_shawn_guy)


In order to counteract the gold loss it also institutes a flat rate of +25 gold per enchantment or masterwork on all gear to incentivize selling gear into the loot system and populating the loot system whilst allowing crafters to level up with minimal loss of gold.

Due to the detrimental nature of the system to new players it would not affect the player until they reach level twenty when a prompt would appear on screen telling the player to seek the oracle due to a strange feeling they have gotten.

Benefits:
Death has a meaning
the loss is temporary
the responsibility of managing death decay falls into the players hands giving them a choice in the matter
becomes a gold managing system as well as allowing experience points to be 'lost'
uses 100%(?) Recycled tech meaning only implementation time to the dev team.
incentivzes visiting the oracle and explains systems which have no explanation(I.E. Why do enemies have our gear, where does the oracle gold and experience come from)

Negatives:
potential backlash from the playerbase
could be seen as a gold sink if not properly explained
kind of makes the oracle look like she's running an extortion racket.
may not actually be made of recycled tech(though I based it on observable systems in the game)


So what do you think? Feel free to post below with your ideas!

 

This is amazing and I love it, please also post me some of what you're smoking

The mechanic does have a penalty, as you say (most or all agree that death needs something to add back the adrenalin rush and consequences), but what you suggest using existing game systems (largely) adds an entire new layer to the lore, immersion, economy and social play.

Would you have anything against cotos also being used to repair stats losses? To me they equate to gold and can be exchanged for it and I'm pretty sure they don't add a pay to win aspect. You don't have to use them, the death stats loss repair costs aren't too huge, but those trying to find something to do with cotos can burn them through a new sink and maybe Port will even sell more.

I think this is a marvelous idea, first one I've seen that makes a death penalty fun and improves the gameplay. I'd love to see something like this implemented @Chris

 

Any chance you could condense that wot, @Doctorface ?

 

Next time you die, try waiting for the timer to expire or exit to menu and start on world map instead of using an ankh.

 

overall, i think it's a great way to make death meaningful.

however, there is a rise in the number of avatars that are, at least, distrust the oracle. i suggest a slightly softer approach than permanent without the oracle. perhaps the debuff weakens over time if you have not died. for every in game year (or quarter, etc) that you don't die, you regain what was lost in a single death.

i'd also like to see a reduction of the debuff if resurrected by a party member. this would provide a small incentive to not die alone. perhaps a gm is resurrection would reduce the chance of the debuff being applied at all.

 

yea not a bad compromise, but you can still get it back to max as @Doctorface suggests if you want. Another slight variation on your idea - you regain a small amount of the deficit with every kill, more for higher level kills.

 

Do It Do It Do It @Chris

 

@Steevodeevo Would you believe I don't smoke anything? As for the coto's I am down for any currency being used for it, even if there are better ways to use coto's now. The gold and experience options were just there to fix the lore. Thanks for the suggestion!

@FrostII I condensed the WoT in post two, I don't know how much further I could condense it.

@Barugon I mentioned that in the post above, this debuff would increase slowly over time as you die over and over again.

@that_shawn_guy I totally agree with the ressurection spell reducing the debuff (I really thought I had remembered to add it into the ramble) I'll attatch it to the breakdown along with the coto cost for nullifying the death debuff. as for it bleeding down over time, as long as the time it takes to bleed off is exceptionally long I would be perfectly fine with that as it wouldn't make the instant clear look pointless and would give players another reason to stop and craft while their buildup clears. Good wrinkle!

@Steevodeevo again: I think I would rather use a 'every kill takes your buildup away' as a PVP incentive, kind of a way to pass off your buildup to another player but still a good idea to think about

 

Yes! This seems like a nice system, although I would love to not see only one attribute go down, I would recommend them all to go down

 

I hadn't thought about that @Feeyo, my idea initially had your stats dropping highest to lowest untill they evened out but dropping them all at once might be more fair. Though it would further limit the maximum buildup as well which would be good for players but make it feel less important to go back into town.

 

I think a more simplistic approach would be to make an opt in system, like the PVP flagging system.

1. Opt in. Gain XP at 2x (current) XP rates, and when you die, you get death decay. To prevent chizzlers, make it so that you can only remove or add the flag once per week.

2. Opt Out, never loose XP on death but gain XP at 1.5x rate....or less....

 

Why go half way?

Attempt to kill the Oracle when you get your shroud would be a permanent opt-in. Permanent PvP flag (comes with a xp gain bonus). Permanent death decay. Permanent full loot ransom on PvP death.

***** slap the Oracle. Lose all her protection forever.

It works in the lore and provides for a hardcore PvP crowd.

 

I've just hit that like button 11 times! This idea is so cool sounding!

 

Port, whatever gets done with the replacement to exp loss on death, get @Doctorface and @that_shawn_guy in to conceive and design it!

 

Damn, @that_shawn_guy thats a game changer!

And I'm not a game designer just a twitch streamer with tooo much time on his hands, but if @Chris wants the idea he is free to have it. This series of rambles is just to put my insanity to good use and if shroud benefits, so be it.

 

Please don't.

 

What's amazing is that a number of people are totally on-board with this but it's way more of punishment than decay ever was. I have to register my thumbs down for this.

 

@Barugon would you care to explain a little further? I did say it could be cleared at an oracle

 

Much better that nothing... much much better.