Reasons to improve/change the XP pool system

No not really. XP gains are just one of many things that need to be properly balanced. The current system can do that without a lot of complex situation checking and allows for application of generic XP in a directed manner. The XP you have is distributed during skill use.. but skill use is not where XP is earned and I'm fine with that.

 

I'm happy you're happy with it (as you usually are) but i'd say that's exactly what this system is not ensuring, since people GM lots of skills in no time. It is because of x4 yep, but it is also because of xp trains razing entire zones out of mobs, giving an even more increased value to grouping for xp and increasing the value of aoe skills.

I do manage my skills with no problem. I also handle my xp pool and control how much i'm gaining and expending, changing zones or strategy if i'm not satisfied with the result. But Chris always says that we should "just play" and i acknowledge that what i'm doing it's not just playing but actually analyze how a game mechanic works and try to extract the best of it.

Once again i'm not saying current system is not working, I'm saying it fails in fulfilling some of the goals the game is supposed to reach and at the same time trying to bring up a solution because i enjoy doing so. I think the way they came up with for monitoring player activity in the use based system is genius, but it needs to be improved to truly fit.

 

Yeah i tend to overcomplicate things i will give you that. I also like that we require an external source to actually being able to gain skills... but i can't still stay happy with it. To me it still looks lacking and don't encourages the kind of experience i thought the game would offer... because it's not just balancing the XP gains, it's also generate more activities that grant XP, and to reduce the necessity of being in an specific zone.

Oh, it's worth saying that i'm not trying to defend my proposal; it's true that i use it when i need to illustrate my points but what i really want to bring up is the problems the system has from my point of view, and that the current system should be improved to cover those issues. Pretty sure there are hundreds of ways of covering those and lots of them will be better than mine. But from my point of view, the problems are still there.

 

Not going to argue there. Always room for improvement.

 

and what kind of improvements would you like to see? don't you feel gated and attracted to zones with mobs in blue/yellow names? don't you feel grindy having to resort to kill monsters over and over again to progress? don't you think skill management could be made a bit more intuitive and less mandatory?

Cmooon Bowen join the fun and throw a rotten tomato to the XP system. It's for improvement and science!

 

No I don't really. I doesn't matter that there's a con system. You still have to learn whether or not you can take on whatever is in an area. If you can't you find somewhere you can.. if it's too easy you fight somewhere that's harder. The con system just simplifies what we already have to do anyway.

The problem with skill management is that there are a lot of skills but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Though I was an early advocate of being able to lock skills

What I would like to see is a better, more interesting presentation of the XP pools. Maybe on the paper doll rather than a permanent fixture on the bottom of the screen.

 

Well, definitely it seems we just want different things from the game... I really don't want to settle with what we have even when i acknowledge it works; we can do it much better, and i want the game to encourage exploring and adventuring as much as fighting. I guess we should agree to disagree

 

In a broader sense I don't think we disagree all the much. The problem in this case is the online factor. The content feels gated because there's a certain amount of progression involved. In Ultima and even in UO it's less the case in part because we never see much in the way of numbers. A liche or dragon in Ultima is a tough opponent when your whole party has low stats.. but there are only 8 levels and the progression is much faster. UO pretty much stuck to that as it no levels were involved at all and with fewer, broader skills you could max the character in a very short time.

If you want a longer progression like SotA currently has.. then a broader range of difficulty is likely the way the go. I don't know of any game in recent history that doesn't have some sort of 'level gated' enemies. At least in SotA you can still go anywhere without having to pass through a 'level gate' first. So you can easily go somewhere that's too tough for you to handle.

A lot of it is perception. How you look at it and what your preferences are. On this particular topic, I'm not really bothered by how it works. I have other things I care about a lot more than how the XP pool feels. That said though.. I really do appreciate championing a pet cause in a constructive manner. I've certainly taken a few on myself. So if you feel strongly about it.. keep it up.

I just think a lot of folks may still not understand the XP pool and there's a lot of perception and psychological stuff going on there. People I think I conditioned these days to want to see things increase and stay that way. Any perceived loss is a negative. Simply changing how the XP pool looks could be a big improvement. My 2 silver.

 

Yes, it's not like we want whole different things... what i wanted to imply is that i see big issues in things that don't bother you that much. It's not like it's a big conflict... but superheroes had started wars for less right?

Spoiler

I think i understand how the XP pool works, and i can't keep my mind away of the issues that concerns me expressed as the two reasons stated in the OP. I agree with you some of the complains arises from how people perceives the xp substraction, but i consider that the issues i'm pointing out exist regardless of those perceptions. That's why i'm bringing this up.

Also even when there's also some other concerns i'm more worried about than this one, i think this one is high up in the list because reaching persistence means we are going to level up and stay that way. If the issues i'm seeing are really a thing and not a product of a wrong analysis (I don't discard but so far haven't seen any argument to make me think that's the case) and the xp pool system is released with those flaws he initial experience is going to favor some and harm others. It will work, but those issues will be there.

Thanks! that's what i'm planning to do along with some other tings. Allow me to say how much i'm appreciating your answers since it's always great to peek into the mind of someone that don't agree with me.

 

~Grinding~

As some of you may know, I've been experimenting with grinding and observing what effects this has upon the skill gains. Thus far I can tell you all that I'm not convinced at all that grinding has any helpful effect or unhelpful effect at all. it does cause the color name tag to be misleading, where if a character was naturally gaining, then the colors would be more leadingly correct. Yet just as Moiseyev points out, when you've limited your own abilities within the game by some mindset of your own restrictions of skills you wish to stick to, instead of beforehand had gained in other skills that would have carried you through that next level, then there always comes a time when we have locked or restricted ourselves out of what could have helped us.

Whenever we restrict our skills by lock or by even non-usage by some mental thing from our own restrictions, the game will eventually punish us for it, by presenting us with a challenge our skills are not best suited for.

~Grinding for EXP Overload~
As far as grinding for saving skill Exp, if we run dry, then things such a Safe Fall and other skills which don't gain us Exp and only drain it become an issue for a need to have some left over in stock. Shield Bash was one that emptied out my Exp pool today, draining all my stored 10-20,000 Exp with it's rising to only 40'ish. Then I had to go kill something in order for my Exp pool to become enough to continue, "yet when fighting, Exp is well enough gained to continue for that rise".

~Grinding to Get Ahead of any Competition~
I don't see any benefit to grinding in this regard at this time. I've had some 9 different start over characters thus far within these past 2 releases and all seem to have progressed in skull skill level places below what the natural progressing skill character would given the same time period to do so. There may be some later effect within these grinding characters lives, yet this is well unseen thus far, as I have taken a few of those characters further than others to experience those effects. In one such character's life, he had sling shot his way up in many skills, only to find that, "yes he could defeat the higher monsters he was later encountering, but suffered greatly whenever those monsters struck him a heavy blow". This means that he was an unbalanced character, from an unbalanced character childhood from his beginnings... Just as Moiseyev had clearly pointed out, yet not meaning in his post. "When we do restrict ourselves in our current game, we do so with great risks of becoming unable to progress later within our character's lives, through the challenges our game presents to us.

~The Grinder GM Killer Cook~
I don't see any point to restricting or penalize grinding, or promoting any skill bonus that's not already here, that would encourage or discourage any Avatar to gain by fighting higher mobs. What is here works great. To impose any new bonus to those that follow a path more suited to our game, would do so only in technical word of mouth or by reading, and we have enough to read already for our players to encounter. Any penalty of hunting lesser mobs is a sham to those with less computer keyboard skills and timed gaming nature. That is to say that the cook in our game, may eventually gain GM mastery of skills in fighting, while going out and hunting up their products. lesser mobs give lesser Exp gain, and that is what we have already here within our game.

~Skill Gains By Force~
I don't see anything useful in restricting, leading, or encouraging others to play as one set of high minded players wish us to by implementing rewards for such behavior.

These grinding players are already penalizing themselves by grinding, or fighting lesser mobs, so they don't need any other forms of punishment, and a player that is "playing the right way" (we'll use that terminology here) doesn't need any more reward for playing their way. Restricting any skills will always find a challenge in their future that will not allow those players to pass that test in skill abilities.
That's what my tests have shown, and if you base an opinion on something you haven't investigated for yourself "many times", then you are basing your opinions on false data of SOTA gaming skill assumptions.

Spoiler

"Behave like us" you say? I say, "this world has many different people than you or I in it"...

No offence, just stating that you want a bonus because "you feel that yours is the way to play"...
~Time Lord~

 

I'm going to spend a bit more time reading this thread when the kids go back to daycare tomorrow, but I am on board as well as @Moiseyev Trueden will attest. I think you have made some fine points but need to read the follow ups in more detail. Maybe I can help refine the thoughts into something not code heavy or drastic that @Chris can get on board with.

 

Sorry Time Lord... is your post directed to me? i'm very confused because i don't see myself or my intentions identified on it . I guess it is because i'm the author of the thread... but i'm still very confused so sorry if my answers miss the point somehow. Also sorry if i'm not the target of those comments for this but i think it's better to clarify anyways...

I just don't want to restrict grinding players. I also don't want to get a bonus because how i play. I'm just trying to point out what i consider that are flaws on the current implementation and why... what i'd like to get from an improved XP system (and what i was trying to bring up with my suggestion) was to reward players for being active, not just for killing mobs. I considered it expanding more than restricting... In fact when i wrote all the posts above i tried to consider all the different ways of playing comparing it with what i know about learning process.

Also i'm not saying that what we have now doesn't work, i'm just saying that it doesn't fit an use based system as much as it could. I don't want anybody to behave like me... more to behave like they want and to be rewarded for it. And i don't want to get a bonus for my way of playing (in fact i'm a very grindy player)...

I take no offence, but i'm confused, and shocked, and a bit hurt... i'm don't mind if nobody likes my suggestions (i just write them because i think it's best for the game, and if they are not written they may be forgot), but it's the first time someone discovers ill will behind them

Please guys tell me where i express all those so i can apologize properly and change them because that's not what i want to bring here. For now please, believe me when i say that all this thread was brought up with the intention of expanding, not restricting, and also believe me when i assure you that any intentions of suggesting a system that benefits my playstyle are purely a coincidence (as i said before my playstyle is quite grindy).

Sorry if this is more messy than usual but it's really hard for me to understand this. What have i done to piss off the Time Lord?

Thanks GreyMouser, looking forward to hear your ideas. Please ignore the suggestion if you want to, it's just there in an attempt of illustrating my point and because i enjoy designing such mechanics. What's really important is to see if what i deem as flaws are real or not. Considering ways of fixing the issue are always great (and fun! at least for me) but it's important to know that, in the end, the Devs will discuss it and come with a (probably even better) solution.

 

~ROFL~
NO, No, no, Don't get me wrong either
Sometimes when I post things, they're directed at certain principles, which here in this post, is my own personal observations "on a very small part" that needs to be addressed when some subject like this comes up. (The ~TL~ was also once one of the three training sergeants that trained every single combat Army soldier before the USA entered into the Gulf Wars... so I can get a bit gritty sounding sometimes )

~Play Testing~
There's boundaries within our system, yet when it comes even close to new player experience within our changes, I get very concerned with how those changes will effect those players and how they will know that such limitations are even there in the first place. Sometimes I'm stating things that need to be remembered from those perspectives and are sometimes overlooked and be watchful for.
It's been my view of late, that too much focus has been spent on issues from old SOTA player's perspectives, who haven't been spending more time in testing our current new player experience. It's difficult to get new eyes once we've seen too far into the program. My references into adapting the game to fit a certain play style, are with the intent to emphasize how many people we are talking about effecting, and then reflect that back to the current subject at hand.
"Anyone that is grinding their way right now, is actually, in differing ways and impacts, "hindering themselves for future barriers to come because they were a grinder".
I'm a grinder, yet I have also been studying naturally progressing characters as well. This latest thing I've been testing, is how those ground up skill stats effect the player later within their character's history... which takes an awful lot of playing and starting over again. The reason I went on such a quest was something @Bowen Bloodgood had stated in another post (I can't find that post now because I didn't post on that thread. It was one I was only reading, that dealt with the issue of grinding, and how in his opinion, it didn't really matter to the character's progression within the game, because of some Exp Pool issue. So, I decided to see and test for myself if such assumptions within his post were correct. What I'm finding is that it doesn't really matter, because the game will eventually present the player with challenges that the lopsided skilled player will not be able to overcome in some form or another. Depending on how lopsided the player has made themselves, the more that restricting effect will stifle their character's growth to continue further. I've also within the test been studying the effects that such grinding could have upon the speedy or slower rise of other skills. What I am finding in that regard is that there's no way to cheat the system in that way to cause rise any faster when compared to the naturally skill rising player.

~Leadership Within Our Gaming Mechanics~
We should have pitfalls and as this has to do with skills, (at least in what I've observed), the game does naturally penalize class based self restricted characters as well as grind players in it's own way as described above, thus adding more leadership ability to the program, I feel is not needed at this time, because there's no case for it that I have found. I'm not objecting to any changes made, I'm just stating that we need to keep a mindset that includes all play styles and not reward any other due to some wish for the program to lead by punitive actions against any player of any style. UO freedom of things we have not... thus we need to stay well aware that any restrictions we do place, are well founded through self testing before we further restrict any players little freedoms we have here in SOTA. The other concern is if this is to be a hidden mechanic or an open one for public knowledge. If it's a hidden one, then it's discovery will be a very difficult one for the player... and if it's an open mechanic for the public to know of, then there's a concern for our instruction manual becoming more overwhelming than it already is. "We have begun to hear from some of our new players in our general forums, that the instructions and information is becoming a bit overwhelming with it's mountain of text.

~Within Our Forums Rhetoric~
Keeping all those issues above well in mind, then how do these changes effect any normal new player thinking about buying into our game? Will they need a college degree, or is our audience still in high school level of understanding? Will lower education levels become frustrated within our game? Such frustration, if there is any to come from it, would then begin to be posted within our general forums and could cause a bad review of our game, thus driving away potential players.

These are some of the concerns I have. I'm not a super programing game dude, so I know that at times I won't be able to understand all of what's being said, yet my opinion is important from a new player view because of such educational deficits... I count those deficits as a big plus on some issues. ( Similar to; we can create a missile system that's better than anyone's, yet do we have the education level needed to pull that trigger on the battlefield?) Such are my concerns with creating deeper gaming mechanics... "will they matter enough to have to become educated in?"

I think this entire thread is great!... I just haven't seen the rhetoric outcome yet to like it all it needs more rhetoric
Great Post @KuBaTRiZeS ... I think you've thought it through, but you need to keep idiots like me in mind ...
~Time Lord~

 

Ok! sorry if that sounded too emotional... It just struck at me as if what i was suggesting were interpreted somehow as a means to justify personal gain... and that surprised me in the same way that a paper plane breaking a window. Totally unexpected!

That's true, the rising cannot be hastened. But you can assure that your gain is always optimal, this being the other side of the "complete drained XP Pool scenario". What made rising optimal is XP hoarding which can be done mostly through efficient killing solo or by joining an XP train where lots of players come together to raze a scene metodically; a character whose XP pool is always growing in size will always have an optimal gain whereas a player with less understanding of the system will have to struggle against that non optimal gain.

This is why i suggested changing the XP pool into a closed meter that goes from 0 to 100 so it is balanced in a way that tends to stay around middle values for an active player, and then the gains are proportional to the level of that meter but also limiting the max amount a skill may gain, just as it is now, so you cannot cheat the system being "overly active".

This is what i'm failing to understand. Why is the solution i'm proposing restrictive? The only way we have to progress beyond where questing takes us is killing monsters. I can't help but see that the way the reward system is designed encourages us to stay in a convenient zone hunting (it could be a zone with big mobs to do selective killing or a zone with weak mobs to do aoe killing but the activity is indeed the same). What i'm proposing is a system that grant rewards to progression in a broader sense, so other kinds of activities are also rewarded. How can that be more restrictive than what we have now? Or it's just that i still don't get it?

This is one of the reasons i had to bring this up, because that's what happens with the current system. I've understand the XP Pool system from a mathetmatical perspective, a game mechanic perspective and tried to extrapolate it to it's counterpart in real life (yep, that's me, engineering through everything) and i don't consider it easy nor intuitive. I believe that my proposed solution could also bring more freedom to the way casual players handle character progression without requiring a further understanding of the game.

The point i'm trying to make is that current progression requires you to know stuff beyond "you need to play to raise your skills". In the system i'm proposing all that knowledge is optional so it doesn't matter whether you are uneducated or just don't want to bother with minmaxing... you are able to just play. And that's the beauty of it. It has more depth, but to take advantage of it you can stay in the surface.

I tried to offer you a rhetorical approach for this concept in this thread (just before you first mentioned BART the turtle), trying to expose how the current implementation of XP Pool fails into accounting how humans actually "learn", in an attempt to compare how we learn in the real world with how we learn in the game. I think that i'm not quite good at rhetorics... and trying to put some of those in English which is not my mother tonge only worsens it. Maybe what i wrote in the thread i linke it's more narrative than rhetorical?

 

~Reflections of the Time Lord, From the Other Side of the Mirror~ Episode 2

~Innate & Active~
After reflecting on another goal of what I've been testing... Prior to testing, I didn't feel that my direct actions were effecting the skill gains in a way that other games had, through direct skill usage = direct skill gain. The game was leading my skills somewhere in a way I didn't understand that needed investigating. As a player, my investigating motives were #1) "is there a hole in the system?" #2) "How will these unexpected holes if found be a detriment to further play?" #3) "Was this a fun way of playing, if such grinding were the way to gain skills more quickly?" If it was/is fun, then how much more fun is it than natural skill progression, and if it were not fun, then is the game encouraging and rewarding players to have a less fun way of playing grinding skills for the purpose of faster skill gains.

Number #3 was and is an important one and I believe that there needs to be some sort of deterrent that is "up front" about it being there. @Bowen Bloodgood 's words and works began coloring my thought proses in this regard... (pay attention Bowen) I began to envision a book, based on our skill card icons, where a storyline could hide, or lead a player's best proses in getting better skill gains. We have so many books full of flowery BS, that those become a great place to hide or refer to a hidden Easter Egg books full of skill progression from every angle of any particular circle of skills. I'm certain that our flowery BS stacks of books will be hiding some that are quest related subjects, yet I now see where a series of books could directly relate to our; Exp Pool effects as well as each and every circle of skills and relate those stories to where best suited areas are for those skills. Such storylines could take the reader down a quest to cause better effect on those individual skill circles.

I do see what you see the problem @KuBaTRiZeS , or at least a part of it that you refer to...
My first inclination was to lock everything active and build the innate, "because skills were rising in a chaotic way". Therefore by embracing the chaos, I began locking skills. Before that time and developing skills naturally, I had noticed that some skills were in slow-mo that I desired to be much higher. One of which was "Healthy" because it has a replacement value which can help offset a lack of healing skills. I wanted to see if healing naturally by standing around could replace the early need of those healing skills (I found it can, yet needs to be high to do so and takes early patience until that rise becomes a short waiting time). This is when embracing the chaos and locking skills became a much deeper search, heading further into drastic broad skill locks. Those lead my character to become unbalanced and began hitting brick walls of mobs that I could take when lucky, yet the death of my character began also having a chaotic lucky to live factor, as when my character received a big hit, it was OoooOooo Res time all too often.

All of the above, takes me to our opening scene, where thoughts of skills become sets that are granted by answering questions with only a few outcomes. If a player were to be offered a single skill which they were adept in within the world, then all other skills would then "shape themselves around that skill" which is the only good thing I could ever say about the ability to lock skills early if that (or more) option is not offered in our beginnings. By locking active skills and raising the innate, other skills did shape themselves around the hallmark skill/s chosen during the locking proses.

So I agree, "there's possibly another way we haven't yet seen or thought of", yet I'm not enlightened how to do so, and offer the skill story books as an additive, but not as a solution. I believe that KuBaTRiZeS's idea has merit in this regard, because it changes the field of how our Exp Pool does it's job. Throwing stones into the dark, I'd say that's the only thing we've hit so far to help address these issues.

~Complications~
It does get complicated within this issue. I see the problem, yet I can't place form upon the beast to strike at it's heart, but it's there. yet this may be the wonder of it which may motivate the user towards reading an ingame story book on skills. "But that book idea doesn't address what you're talking about, it only has possible purpose after the fact of what is needed, neither does any changes within our opening character build scene, again, that's an after the fact issue. The fact is that I am still motivated to have my used skill be more effected by use, yet the after effects of an unbalanced skilled character does lead to a disaster at some point when faced with continuing challenges where specific skill sets just don't cut it. When I hit such walls of later challenge, it is disappointing, yet is a result of my unbalanced skills.

~Skill Management & Gates~
I'd rather see skill management and less gates, yet I see what we have, which is not exactly direct skill management and not a true gated way either. But in between those and dealing with what we have, some fine tuning could be the answer while still maintaining what we have. It's that beast in the dark issue for me at that point, because I personally am not that educated to know in order to hit such a beast, so KuBaTRiZeS's solution would seem to have promise, though I can't envision that outcome's future resolve in effects... because I'm educationally blind to it.

~It's Now or Never~
Elvis is channeling that message through KuBaTRiZeS...
It's easy to give and it's almost impossible or at least uncomfortable to change after the fact of 24/7. I'm sure we'll see changes after that in many if not all areas, yet acceptance and play testing becomes a second account issue because no one wants to go through rebuilding a main character once so much play time's invested. "It's extremely difficult now to find new character building testers because players are so tied to what they've invested even though they will be wiped soon.

~Better Than Doing Nothing~
KuBaTRiZeS's solution is probably better than what we have and it seems to be something that can be regulated to it's effectiveness without too much player grief. I am happy with what we have, yet I also state the problems and encounters with the current system as a warrant for such attempts in fighting the beasts I have described.
...Because otherwise, their not going away...
Thanks for explaining that more indepth...err... more shallow for me KuBaTRiZeS
It took allot of my own test reflection...
~Time Lord~

 

Very much agree and like the perspective. My current problem is that the game is designed so that everyone has to be melee/mage hybrid, but yet the devs keep trying to push that there are many ways to play. I fully acknowledge I'm pigeon holing myself and my builds because I want to specifically test something other than the min/max hybrid that everything is built around. I'm looking forward to when hybrid builds are no longer a requirement to be able to advance successfully.

 

OK. I love timey wimey's posts, but it adds a lot more reading time.

Please let me try to summarize first to see if I got the idea in the current stage.

1. Activity/XP meter ranges from near 0 to near 100, asymptotic at both ends. Parabolic? Logarithmic? Hyperbolic to cover both pluses and minuses? Hmm.
2. (A) Certain activities affect the location of the static meter needle, or (B) is the meter dynamic depending on the activity? i.e. - kill the "not recently killed" wolf with a "not recently used" skill get 90% of an allotted "wolf value", and then kill the "go-to" spider with the "go-to" glyph for 10% of the allotted "spider value"? Trying to understand your thoughts as follows:

• Doing new things while raising low level skills: 90%
• Doing old but unrepeated things while raising low level skills: 50%
• Doing old & repeated things while raising low level skills: 30%
• Doing old but unrepeated things while raising high level skills: 30%
• Doing old & repeated things while raising low level skills: 10%

Here is my confusion. (A) would apply a certain % of "wolf or spider" value to the skills used. (B) is adding a % of a value to the current pool system, from which allocation to skills continues as the system works now. I do not know which of these you suggest.

I better stop summarizing till I get this part clarified I guess.

What I can do is list the few things I think that are important to consider:
1. Keep any change small or nuanced off of an existing system already in place (like the tracking, pool, allocation to skills, etc.)
2. Keep things intuitive, so that even a complex behind the scenes system will still "look simple" to the gamer.
3. Encourage seeing new things and new content (more questing/exploring activity gains)
4. If not a diminishing return, then a diminishing respawn to add a bit of realism.
5. Much has changed, but I had a thread on a "concentrate" option which is similar in a way to inversely tying "locked" skills to adventurer level. I think there is merit in this idea as the new player can work on learning the game mechanics before worrying about the micro-management abilities later.

Yes, let's discuss this, once I realize exactly what you mean regarding the skill gain/vs. pool meter I have many ideas to help with the pitch either way. At this late stage, it is all about the pitch, otherwise it is EP2 maybe.

 

~Yes, User Friendly~
I like what I'm hearing because I couldn't grasp what all that entails. I only know current player impact by how it caused me to react to it. Your observations and those of KuBaTRiZeS along with others could be different than my own, knowing more deeply the computer programing side. I am out of my depth here, of that there is no doubt. But I offer my input as how many players are, unqualified to understand program, yet what I've offered is from my common user observation, which I hope helps you see more in those experiences than I do. So no worries, your choice of words do ring true. I may not understand it, but I know when wisps are speaking to one another to which I may never understand and probably don't need to.
I think you all are onto something, yet as I said of the beast I cannot see, maybe you can better see it, which I think that you do.
~Timey Wimey~

 

Thank you so much for your input @Time Lord ! i've read it in the afternoon but i was half busy... and now i'm busy with an auction! I'll read it again tomorrow to extract the wisdom from your words, because through your understanding of my words i'm able to understand myself better, and that way take the idea to new "depths". Since i'm trying to make some rhetoric here i'll end saying that "it's not being right or wrong what matters in the end, but to understand and be understood. Enlightment may be reached empathy". Hope that makes sense

@GreyMouser2 your summarization is spot on! And the concentrate mechanic does ring a bell... I'm looking forward to clarify it further so we can start discussing all that and what's important, to see if it can be made simple enough! that's where the hope is after all

I'll start from that summarization with the intention of outlining the concepts a bit more and also try to explain the meaning behind all the math and numbers, trying to translate it to why i'm thinking it should be that way and how i expect it to feel from the player perspective. Because "it's not all in the math but in how those math affects our experience" (pun intended ).

 

~#4~

~#4's Issues~
1) To me, the program does this naturally anyway, because a high level skilled Avatar will wipe out an entire lesser monster population with greater speed, thus waiting for such a spawn to re-spawn does take a great while in the current game's program.

2) I have seen higher level skilled Avatar come through an area where one of my lesser skilled Avatar's was hunting, and it took maybe 30 minutes to re-spawn (while I was posting just like this, waiting for it to re-spawn. This meaning, if your Avatar encounters a greater Avatar hunting a lesser spawn, then does that not punish as well, the lesser Avatar's hunt? Would that then lead to the un-lead, meaning that a guildmaster taking his young new player guildmate to hunting areas, then effect that young player's advantages, having less to hunt while his guildmaster is there?

3) As Avatars gain skills, there comes a time when new skills are needed. Those skills are then at beginner's level, thus could and do rise within lesser mobs. This is another thing I encountered while testing new Avatars of my own recreation. Most of my locked skilled Avatars, ran into this situation quite often. it is possible to come out of the Avatar creation with only raising any specific skill to around 50'ish before ever venturing away from the initial training dummy. That then effects the colors of the Avatar's name tag as well as the monster's name tags the Avatar is then fighting. So an Avatar with unbalanced skills, the program then sees those or that one skill and bases it's color name tag onto an Avatar that is not that qualified to be there based on all the other skills the Avatar has yet to be as proficient in.

Those are just some observations that might help...
~Timey O'Lordy~