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renting a lot without a deed

Discussion in 'Wishlist Requests' started by Lars vonDrachental, Aug 6, 2019.

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  1. Lars vonDrachental

    Lars vonDrachental Avatar

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    I was reading this thread and got an idea that might be good solution as @Steevodeevo was mentioning that an enhanced subscription for directly renting a town deed might be interesting.

    Currently you need a deed and a free lot spot to take ownership for a place. My suggestion would be to add a new option were you do not need a deed anymore…so to say you would also rent the needed deed.

    Claimed a row lot with a tax-free row deed = no tax
    Claimed a row lot with a taxed row deed = 250 gold each day
    Claimed a row lot without a deed = 500 gold each day / a row sub for e.g. $4 a month

    Claimed a village lot with a tax-free village deed = no tax
    Claimed a village lot with a taxed village deed = 500 gold each day
    Claimed a village lot without a deed = 1.000 gold each day / a village sub for e.g. $7 a month

    Claimed a town lot with a tax-free town deed = no tax
    Claimed a town lot with a taxed town deed = 1.000 gold each day
    Claimed a town lot without a deed = 2.000 gold each day / a town sub for e.g. $10 a month

    Claimed a city lot with a tax-free city deed = no tax
    Claimed a city lot with a taxed city deed = 2.000 gold each day
    Claimed a city lot without a deed = 4.000 gold each day / a city sub for e.g. $12 a month

    New avatars could this way join the current sub and using the gained Cotos to pay the rent without the need to first find a way to get the needed deed while owning a deed would still be useful as it is lowering resp. removing the tax.

    If there are considerations about the values of deed I guess there are options thinkable that keep purchasable deeds more valuable. E.g.:
    - There could be a difference between the numbers of decorations you can place on the lot e.g. no-deed version = -50% decorations
    - There could be a limit of the number of rentals you can have e.g. no-deed version = max. 1 or the limit is that you have to use you quest deed (row or village) to claim the larger non-deed version
    - There could be a difference between the vendors e.g. no-deed version = no vendors
    - There could be a location limit e.g. no-deed version can be placed just in PoTs
    - …

    It is just a rough idea but what do you think?

    (Edit: Updated values as I wasn't aware that rent was halved.)
    (Edit: Will continue to add ideas/suggestions out of the thread that might fit.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
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  2. Steevodeevo

    Steevodeevo Avatar

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    Love it. It makes an enhanced sub with property more sensible as the sub enables a rental of a higher level house (monthly revenue cost) rather than a 'free gift' of a deed, that may imbalance the game. Yes the rental would be at a premium rate, but that's what an enhanced subscription entails.
     
  3. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    I'm not against the idea of linking sub to housing somehow, but I am wondering how necessary it is. Getting a row deed is not that hard (finish the outskirts) which, since new people are funneled through there now...is kind of inevitable. Its almost like getting the deed at the end of the tutorial. And then you're a homeowner. Where the deed-for-land system really broke down was with pots, when early on you had a guild who had this huge town with plenty of space but had no way to let people live in it (taxed or otherwise) unless they spent $$ on a deed. The deeds-from-quest system more or less addressed this issue.

    I'm not sure how I feel about deedless rentals of larger spaces. I feel like it would be destablizing. A deed - even a taxed deed - has value, and if it became no longer necessary except to give you a small tax discount, well, I just think it would cause a bunch of unnecessary economic implications/complications.
     
  4. Violet Ronso

    Violet Ronso Avatar

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    Only issue is your current prices are 2x higher than in game values (a row is now 250g/day)

    I would think leaving the current rate up for Taxed deeds, but allowing the rent option at 2x the price, thus costing old prices (500g for a row, 1k for a village, etc.)
     
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  5. Lars vonDrachental

    Lars vonDrachental Avatar

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    Yeah, I totally missed that hey had halved the rent and just read about it in another thread.
    I think in that case the "old" rent would be sufficient for the no-deed versions and will update the values ;)
     
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  6. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    Mhm.
    Nah.
    That pretty much undermines the whole point of the housing thing + it would make it darn easy for plot sellers to block much more plots than they are already doing.
    Everybody that finishs the starting area gets a row lot deed to do the first steps in housing. That should be enough.

    What about that: make it cheaper to convert that Row pot deed into a Row PA deed. As add on goodie.
    No idea what the cost for converting it is at the moment but I am sure someone can come up with it. Whatever it is, make it 50% for the upgrade.
     
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  7. Lars vonDrachental

    Lars vonDrachental Avatar

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    Indeed you are getting a row deed quite fast but if you like the possibilities to decorate you have to invest quite a lot of money to do that on a larger lot but as decorating is one of the key features of SotA I generally understand that there might be a demand for a more accessible access to larger deeds. That's why I made this suggestion and why we are talking about it. ;)
    Paying maybe $10 each month to rent a larger lot might be for a lot more people a more reasonable option than paying once $1.000.
    If there are considerations about the values of deed I guess there are options thinkable that keep purchasable deeds more valuable. E.g.:
    - There could be a difference between the numbers of decorations you can place on the lot e.g. no-deed version = -50% decorations
    - There could be a limit of the number of rentals you can have e.g. no-deed version = max. 1 or the limit is that you have to use you quest deed (row or village) to claim the larger non-deed version
    - There could be a difference between the vendors e.g. no-deed version = no vendors
    - There could be a location limit e.g. no-deed version can be placed just in PoTs
    - …
     
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  8. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    Its an interesting idea.
    I'm just trying to clarify what problem it is aiming to solve.

    So problem = too large of an up-front investment to get access to a large deed to decorate?

    I can agree this is a problem. But consider how much money has changed hands to own these deeds, precisely because they are the only route to 'property ownership' (taxed or untaxed) that is the value/purpose of them. Doing away with them calls all of that into question. Someone who has spent that $1000 to have that deed might be a bit upset if tomorrow they could have saved that and just paid a sub and slightly higher tax, or dealt with some minimal restriction. I know I would be extremely irritated. I would look for a solution that could open up 'lot potential' without de-valuing or trivializing the existing deed system.

    I mean otherwise, as POT steward I could just spam out markers (no deeds required!) and cover them all with crops and make a fortune. The deed is the limiter, its the piece of paper that says "I am committing to this", I am being a landowner, and I would argue the more fundamentally important part than the tax which is you are using the lots for profit (ie farming) is just a ledger line on your expenses, and if you're using the lot to decorate, create something beautiful that enriches the game, or an event venue, or etc - making you pay for the privilege is a bit insulting.

    I have played another game where your subscription status was directly tied to your plot ownership. I.E if subscriber = yes, you can claim 1 plot of land of X size. Call them subscriber plots. Something like that has potential, and cancelling the sub would bankdump said land. They'd have to be pretty heavily restricted though so that proper deeds retain appeal/value. It depends on what the need/objective of these plots are. Deco project? Storefront? Gardening? The last thing we need is more people claiming spots and not doing anything with them and now they don't even need a deed to do it. I could see offering different subscription tiers for larger land to avoid the 'large up front payment' problem.
     
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  9. Violet Ronso

    Violet Ronso Avatar

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    I think the suggestion made by @Lars vonDrachental is the one that makes most sense, you are allowed a free deed, which you can use on a row as it was made to be, or pay extra taxes to use it on a bigger lot. This will do 3 things, limit the amount claimed, bring an optional gold sink back, and allow players to afford bigger sizes without spending thousands of money or game time towards this 1 goal.

    Yep, I like this idea.
     
  10. Bedawyn

    Bedawyn Avatar

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    I DO think we need rental plots, but I'd worry about the mechanism described here. I still think the larger lots should NOT be accessible by casual players (unless they've been casual but steady over a long period of time), because it encourages people to treat the area as throwaway, if they don't have a serious emotional investment in it, rather than using it in a way that contributes to the overall atmosphere of the town. I prefer my solution of allowing large and small lots to be rented out without a deed, for cheaper than taxes, but preventing renters from changing the house itself, adding a basement, or building eyesores in the yard. This way both casual and serious players could still enjoy the larger houses, but serious players would still be motivated to save up for the larger deed, and casual players would have limited ability to ruin a neighborhood.
     
  11. Bedawyn

    Bedawyn Avatar

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    This is my personal pet peeve! At the very least, they should have another "tier" where you can upgrade to PRT status before upgrading to PA status. I've heard that they're gradually removing the unsettled PRTs, which is a shame because I've seen several that are lovely, and NOT on the same few templates that all the POTs seem to use. But Port doomed the PRTs themselves when they made settling there the same price as settling in the NPC towns, for less "service".
     
  12. Lars vonDrachental

    Lars vonDrachental Avatar

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    Even without the below your post mentioned possible limitation I do not think this would be a reasonable way to block areas or is the location selling that lucrative that the needed rent/sub is negligible?
    And could you describe what this "whole point of the housing thing" is that this suggestion would undermine?

    Yep I think that’s the base problem we are talking about. The possibility to let avatars somehow use more than the quest lots without spending huge sums of money and that in the current system. And yes, that is a quite difficult task. ;)

    The game you are talking about, is the sub the only way to get ownership?

    A direct sub also @Steevodeevo suggested in his thread but as you described it it sounds like we would need a new type of marker and probably also a new deed type. The marker would define that this lot is just for subs while the sub deed would have to be some kind of temporary item were the timer can be raised by renewing the sub...that might need some new mechanics as I think we currently have something like that. I guess this could be a possible solution but would also generate some more confusion as avatars would have to keep track if they have a NPC, PoT oder SUB deed and what kind of marker they have found. Maybe this could be an option for EP2. PoTs get them as an additional option and in NPC towns e.g. 1/3 of the lots is placed as SUB lots.
    I still would prefer my suggestion but wouldn't vote against such a mechanic.

    Well the value of deeds has already changed a lot and will also change in the future. E.g. I think I read in a recent thread that it takes more than eight years until a tax free deed is the better option compared to a taxed version. There might be felt or real losses but if in the end there are more people enjoying SotA I guess it is worth it but of course there should be found a way that is acceptable for everyone and I guess reasonable limitations for no-deed-rentals might be a possible solution.

    I do not know if you do some agriculture but it is quite time consuming. If you do not miss a watering agriculture is no loss but I guess farming some monsters is most likely a more productive labour.
    And you already have to pay to "create something beautiful that enriches the game" if the quest deeds are not sufficient. The difference would be that your investment is lower and thus more interesting for a larger group of people even if there are some limitations.

    Well I think there is already a rental system that is offering exactly what you are suggesting but it is player driven. The landowner is placing the house and the subtenant can just place decorations but e.g. no basement and additionally the landowner can even send items to the bank if the subtenant would be creating "eyesores". But even if there are some subtenants and most of them do not even have to pay rent this is not a commonly used feature.
    Maybe a game system without avatars as middleman might be more accepted…I don’t know…but for me at least your point of cheaper taxes sounds odd. If the rental without deed is cheaper in maintenance (even with restrictions) I do not see there any big incentive for the avatar to buy e.g. a taxed deed as he would pay $ to have a higher maintenance. :eek:
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
  13. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    Sure: earn money.

    My subjectiv opinion? Yes it kinda is a problem. And even if it is not it will become a problem for sure if they can rent them just for gold without a deed. That's invitable I am afraid.
     
  14. Lars vonDrachental

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    So you are saying you do not want people to pay small investments and instead you want that just large ones are allowed…well ok if you see it that way I can understand your opinion.
    I have seen some "empty" lots too and checking them once in a while they are never close to eviction but I honestly do not think the suggestion could be used in a similar way as the tax free deeds. It sounds unlikely that blocking a lot by using something with running costs is a business model that could be successful as all this constant investment has to be re-earned somehow.
     
  15. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    I highly recommend to visit Brit Alleys and take a look who factually owns it.
    Our high class traders have an almost infinite amount of gold.

    You were talking about gold. The $ idea is new and wasn't part of your original post. I still disapprove of the idea but that's just my inital reflex and I am going to let that addition sink in before I answer that one.
     
  16. Lars vonDrachental

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    I think it’s not that different and more or less the same with gold as you can get a larger deed also just by using gold but most likely you have to buy some thousand Cotos from other avatars and of course at first get the needed gold somehow.
    In this case you have also to make one big investment by using some hundred thousand or million gold instead of the suggested small but steady payment.
    I guess I should have made it more clear but even in the original post I said that the source for the rent could be the current sub. Converting Cotos into gold by selling them to avatars is basically more reasonable than converter them directly into rent...maybe I will change the wording in the original post.
     
  17. Alleine Dragonfyre

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    I appreciate the effort here but this just feels inequitable to owning deeds at the end of the day which is the major problem. It still feels like some folks are getting a lot more out of buying in-game stuff than just playing the game for in-game stuff.

    The solution is quite simple. Subscriptions for all. Buying deeds with in-game gold, a lot of in-game gold.

    Maybe a subscription that enables deed ownership. Something along those lines.
     
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