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Skill thing on right is confusing, add tooltips

Discussion in 'Release 28 Feedback Forum' started by mercster, Apr 10, 2016.

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  1. mercster

    mercster Avatar

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    1. Title: Skill thing on right is confusing, add tooltips
    2. Reproduction Rate: 100%
    3. Blocker? No
    4. Details: The skill icons on the right side are confusing. I've been playing RPGs for a long time and there is no intuitive reason for them to be there. If they must be there, add tooltips to all the functions, like pinning the icons or removing them. Also maybe they should be more sequestered to their own mini-window, or at least explain it in tooltips.
    5. Steps to Reproduce: A. Log into SOTA B. Notice confusing skill bar at right side, no explanation, no tooltips for control of the bar (Yes skills have tooltips, but why are they listed on right side?)
    6. User Specs: Win10 64bit
     
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  2. Thud

    Thud Developer Emeritus

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    Moved to feedback forum, thank you!
     
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  3. mercster

    mercster Avatar

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    Fair enough :) Thanks for the move.
     
  4. Carlin the Druid Archer

    Carlin the Druid Archer Avatar

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    I really enjoy the sense of progression having these icons gives when you log in to play a session, but I agree with the OP that there needs to be a better UI to handle it to make it more obvious and give ability to hide.
     
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  5. mercster

    mercster Avatar

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    Yeah, it's nice and I love the info, it just isn't well documented, ya know? Needs more tooltips, just an explanation of what it is, really. I'm sure they'll get to it, this is a first iteration.
     
  6. Noric

    Noric Avatar

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    Being confused by the skill trackers is not nearly as confusing as operating in a skill and xp pool based system without them. You get a sense of how things are happening from them that i think will help teach players the system they are in. I'm not arguing that unexposed people will get confused, but that is at least somewhat inevitable in a skill base system when most people are used to level based. (of course tutorials and later iterations could make this problem less significant)
     
  7. mercster

    mercster Avatar

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    I hear what you are saying. Consider another viewpoint: I'm not new to RPGs, or stats, or even this game. At the same time, I would like LESS information. I think too many of these XP bars and numbers and what-have-you only serve the interests of the power gamers, the min-maxers. You may be one of those, and I certainly COULD play that game if I wanted to...

    But I don't. Just throwing that out there. (I think the icons on the right are better than the XP bars, the XP bars should be done away with.)

    My opinion. :)
     
  8. Noric

    Noric Avatar

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    XP bars say different things than the icons. I get where you are coming from with information overload. I think that it can be solved with a combination of options to deactivate features and by "hiding" them in plain sight in a way that is not obtrusive if you are not trying to read the information from them.

    I do think that the icons would be good for the new players by default... though the bars i am less positive on.
     
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  9. mercster

    mercster Avatar

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    @Noric Yes they do say different things...and I think we agree that maybe not EVERYTHING should be said? :) I agree, even though I think the icons on the right aren't quite "baked" yet, I would rather see those than the XP bars. I just don't like them. The mechanics of how XP works in this game is so complex and convoluted...but that may be a good thing! Don't show us too much. Let us learn it through...well...experience.

    I think a little mystery would go a long way towards making a deep game.
     
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  10. Roycestein Kaelstrom

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    The skill gain icons is the best thing that subtly addressed the issue people freaking out over seeing the XP bar going down while "leveling".

    I personally love it over having to open the gump to track skill progress. I think once people catch and understand what it is, the UI would be fine as is.

    However people may want an option to turn it off if they do not care about seeing the progress and would rather immerse into the world.
     
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  11. Noric

    Noric Avatar

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    I very much disagree with this approach. The number of bugs that hide in a game that does not have mechanics explained is going to be significantly increased. If you look at one of the other threads right now a number of us are talking about the decay and experience bonus, and are entirely lost because there is nothing to go off of. The implementation of the experience system in conjunction with the bars COULD be simplified into the idea that you only train a couple things at once, but even that is wrong to a degree and extremely hard to get beyond when trying to learn it from experience.

    I more or less think the security mantra "security through obscurity is not secure" applies to the depth of a game. If the game is just tic-tac-toe hidden under a huge costume... it is still going to have the total complexity of tic-tac-toe.
     
  12. mercster

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    Totally. Which is a good reason to make the XP bar go away :) Since R21 (when I joined) SotA has been about skill levelling more than general level. I realize it still has a place in some math, but it's too much info.
    I understand, but I'm thinking of newbies. That's all.
    Yeah I'm sure that'll be an option eventually. I really don't want them to go away, I just don't understand them! :)
     
  13. mercster

    mercster Avatar

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    Totally understand. I made my living as a UNIX systems administrator and attempted to introduce things like Linux into the operation all the time. However, this is not a piece of open source security software. This is a video game.
    Yes, again, doesn't apply. Well...wait. Up until final wipe, and maybe commercial release? Fine, keep the bars. You're right in that it probably facilitates testing the mechanics.

    However, when that is done, hide the stats. :)
     
  14. Noric

    Noric Avatar

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    You may not think of it as being equivalent to open-source software, but you would be surprised how much it is. The number of bugs people have exposed just by checking mechanics is tremendous, and that effort is not going to end with commercial release. If their goal is to have a series of episodes, then the development will extend far into the future and ripping up the infrastructure that is helping to facilitate QA is just going to reduce the quality of the result.

    Again, i really do advocate NOT forcing the information on people (unless that information is simplified and used to resolve a frequent problem - ie : xp starvation). However, a game has depth from having good systems not by hiding everything.
     
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  15. mercster

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    Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic. -- Arthur C. Clarke's Third Law

    Once the bad bugs are hashed out, there's no reason to add these details to the player's experience. We'll have to agree to disagree I suppose.
     
  16. mercster

    mercster Avatar

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    Also, one man's bug is another man's arcane, but effective, algorithm. :) In something like an operating system, or a piece of mission-critical software, you want lots of eyes and there has to be lots of auditing because...this is the software that businesses rely on to do business.

    This is a video game. When you play Shinobi, there aren't stats about where you are on the screen in relation to enemies. There's no coordinates in Mario. You learn by playing.

    The same was true for Ultima.
     
  17. Noric

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    I think we are going to continue disagreeing about the development model for games versus other software (which is fine).

    I would say that Ultima, Shinobi and Mario probably all have good systems that would be fun whether or not you saw more underlying principles. Anyway, i'll let other people give their input on your thread :p
     
  18. mercster

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    Heeey, it all started as a bug report, imagine that. ;-)
     
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  19. Lord_Darkmoon

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    I also don't know why we have to manually close them. I think they would be less annoying if they would vanish automaically after a few seconds or if we could turn them off completely.
     
  20. mercster

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    This. Make them dynamic. Here's a plus! Here's another plus! Then fade away. It reduces clutter and is a nice "zing!" when upping skills.

    EDIT: OR, have an option to make them as they are now. Or as @Lord_Darkmoon said nothing at all. It's a step in the right direction.
     
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