So, NFTs? Yea or nay?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by oplek, Jan 22, 2022.

?

NFTs?

  1. Yea

    5 vote(s)
    8.1%
  2. Nay

    51 vote(s)
    82.3%
  3. Eh

    6 vote(s)
    9.7%
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  1. oplek

    oplek Avatar

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    • Given this game's history with monetization, I'm kind of surprised that the devs haven't explored it.
    • Given the old-school demographic of the game, I'd be surprised if anyone really wanted them.
    • If the goal of the devs was to take a cut of RMT, they already have a method of doing this (COTOs to unlock heredity items).
    • I'm mostly surprised that no one appears to be mentioning them here.
    Or is this the last refuge of people who haven't heard of them?

    So, do you want a token in a blockchain that "represents" something in the game, that has external mechanisms to allow sales outside of the game? Or are you one of those people who think NFTs will somehow magically let you ride your horse into Eve Online?
     
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  2. Vesper

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    It was brought up, and the devs aren't interested
     
  3. Dermott

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    After the initial hype of NFTs, there has been a growing (and probably, should have been expected) backlash against NFTs. In that regard, the concept of using NFTs and Blockchain needs to have a functional purpose behind it beyond "We have NFTs!!!". If there were a need to create a security system for SotA items, then maybe, but if that need is not specifically there, it's not going to bring anything to the table.

    I'm not against NFTs, but they do need to make sense in the premise and systems of the game and not just be something added to ride the hype train.
     
  4. Kabalyero Kidd

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    In Mir4... you can mint your character into an NFT and sell it in the marketplace... buyers can unmint them (is that a real word, just guessing) and use them in-game as their characters...
     
  5. oplek

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    But I'm guessing that's buried within non-searchable and/or non-public communication channels like streaming and Discord. I guess this will be that public record.

    My general stance on the topic of NFTs is "there is no posited benefit of NFTs that is either real, or isn't done better without them."

    I don't understand your description... what does that even mean? But I don't think it's your fault... there's probably no coherent model there to describe lucidly. When NFTs are "implemented", they're mostly smoke and mirrors.

    There's apparently some game out there, where you can buy an NFT of a wolf character in the game. I want to pop the hood, look underneath, and make sense of how it supposedly works. If that NFT isn't much more than a record in a ledger. How does that relate to what's happening in the distributed game clients with a central server? How is that not better done by a traditional database? If the blockchain record just says, Person X has Wolf ID Y... then it has no power. They could, the very next day, patch the game client to simply not care about the blockchain, and anyone can use whatever wolf they want. Adherence to those records are entirely voluntary. The only reason they have any influence at all, is because the game devs choose to enforce it.

    "Play to earn" is little more than a pyramid scheme. It's not like the game companies are going to pay players out of pocket... so that leaves the existing players trying to recruit others to inject money into the ecosystem, so they can cash out. Where pointless busywork in the game is done by those being "paid" by those with more money, to do it, so they don't have to. That'll be mostly people in developing countries, by the way, who will then be suffering an opportunity cost, career-wise. Their resumes will have a multi-year entry for "farming soul-crystals", instead of being an apprentice car-mechanic. Then, the ecosystem collapses, because pyramid schemes often do.

    The devs could turn the game client into a crypto miner. There's that angle, too, I guess.

    I've seen an assertion that, "If it's done right . . . you can actually own your digital games". The comments starting with "If it's done right..." never have the followup explanation as to what would be "right"... but game ownership is a convoluted mess of a concept on a good day. What does that even mean? If you download the installer from GOG, you "have" it in your personal possession, even though you probably don't have rights to distribute it.

    How would an NFT help? Does it point at a ZIP of the installer that people could right-click-save-as? Or is it an encrypted ZIP with a smart contract to somehow download, decrypt, re-encrypt with another password, then send the new person the password? How would it prevent you from continuing to play your local copy? That's what "transfer of ownership" would require. Or is it some key that a storefront like Steam would enforce it with some DRM, or voluntarily decide to honor, and redeem, and allow you to download and install? If Steam is the arbiter of whether it decides it wants to let you run, install, or re-sell your license, the limitation up to this point in history has not been the availability of NFTs, but a financial incentive.

    In general, the ability to buy/sell items has been present, whether the devs wanted it or not, since forever (RMT). Devs still have to implement systems to integrate the technology, and to figure out which NFT belongs to which account... so it doesn't save them dev time. And doing RMT in-game (or in-system), securely and reliably, is largely just a question of not having **** code.

    And don't even get me started on the utter insanity of somehow being able to bring items from game A to game B. Again, the problem here to somehow get dozens/hundreds of separate game developers to cooperate to establish a technology standard, has not been limited by missing NFTs... but by financial incentive, and massive amounts of freedom and versatility in even being able to design and engineer a game, that's now strictly limited by a narrow set of external requirements.

    There's a lot of magical thinking behind NFTs that rarely resolves to something meaningful... a magical wand to hypothetically solve "problems" that plague us, but done so in a way to lure people into paying something for effectively nothing.

    So no, my main gripe isn't "envrionmental concerns", because that's not a great argument against them, although traditional databases would still probably be more efficient. My gripe is that it's grifting magical solutions.
     
  6. Enfo

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    There are a plethora of other features to add before we consider limited edition trading cards and NFTs being a better feature.

    Having friends who have developed various crypto coins and nfts, and me throwing money in and learning the shenanigans that goes with it (paying celebrities and crypto influencers to help pump coins, paying marketplaces to list coins, paying for fake editorials that people take as legitimate, two of which I wrote for fun, SEO, ect.) I dont see the benefit to a game I enjoy.

    I own a few NFTs because I knew who was making them, and I was just a contributor in *We sold x amount, our market cap is y, and these limited first editions get more valuable but everyone rrasing this should wait until Z month when we release limited second editions." I dump quickly to recoup all investment.

    What I am getting at is that if I have used crypto and NFTs to pump and dump to make money (or more valuable crypto) quick - why would I want a game we enjoy to fall into the "dump" category? Plenty of other places to improve.
     
  7. craftymethod

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    Blockchain and NFT's make total sense but need to be considered during the design process, even though current implementation is quite limited across most projects as their use is still being explored.

    But caution must be used to avoid poor and bad taste implementation and usage...

    for as many poor examples people can accuse these technologies of being do exist and are often lame, these technologies can and will blow our minds through common sense and ease of use and impressive functionality.

    But we need to attract brilliant fresh minds to the project with open minds.

    Who doesn't want to load via QR code their custom and experienced pets in a snow glob in the middle of their dining table (ie in real life etc)? or even a 3d view of their lot?

    Idea's are endless, don't let these conversations dwell on the lame and close minded.
     
  8. dayero

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    NFT's are broken on pretty much every level. They are centralized and not binding on either a technical or legal level. You might as well buy "real" estate on alpha centauri from a nigerian warlord which you can claim "as soon as we get there" - totally legit spit-into-the-handshake contract included.
     
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  9. Echondas

    Echondas Bug Hunter Bug Moderator

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    IMHO - NFTs are a scam, a waste of energy and contribute to pollution like crypto mining does. There are also people stealing artists’ works and selling them as NFTs with no permission from the artist or commission. I hope they disappear sooner rather than later.
     
  10. Barugon

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    I concur.
     
  11. craftymethod

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    /em sigh

    Bitcoin is a tremendous invention IMHO, carbon emissions is actually a strong point if you utilise its heat production, just energy with economic velocity and clean form of heat. Lots of rabbit holes...

    The questions should be:

    1) How will these technologies benefit players in a meaningful way?

    2) What would happen if gold or crowns were pinned to a token or coin.
    // this is just a thought experiment
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2022
  12. Echondas

    Echondas Bug Hunter Bug Moderator

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    I don't have any issue with bitcoin, per-say -- just NFT's.
    As far as the power and pollution go .. sure, if people are being responsible and using the heat generated for a real purpose, and the cost of that heat is less than or equal to traditional heat generation (ie: efficient) - that's ok with me.
    .. but as I think we all know - a lot of people are not responsible.

    GPU prices being insane, is another issue tho.
     
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  13. ephialtes

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    Some good points about NFTs were brought up at the latest live stream.
    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1407933285?t=58m40s
    I think it would be befitting to go all the way and follow an example set by Molyneux's NFT game Legacy, which has already sold $70 million in virtual land.

    There was an AMA with an absolutely magnificent Peter Molyneux yesterday. The AMA contains some great pointers about how to take an advantage of the NFT mania. After all, there is gold in the streets just waiting for someone to come and scoop it up.
     
  14. craftymethod

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    Few thoughts after Chris's stream:

    1) Most NFT environment concerns come from a common calculation method 'proof of work' which is considered a dated technique and other technologies are being implemented which a far less intensive.

    2) Crypto mining is more profitable than conventional mining and most/all manufacturing processes, thereby attracting enterprises which otherwise would likley engage in more environmentally impactful businesses.

    3) We have a very cool world which the aesthetics kicks ass over other virtual 'metaverse' destinations. We should really play up the idea that we are creating a 'living breathing virtual world'. UO heritage FTW!

    4) Crowns are currently pinned to the USD. This could eventually bring issues for reasons not worth going into ;)

    5) A lot of people have crypto portfolios inside some of the fastest growing liquidity markets on the planet. Accepting these forms of payments means Catnip will also potentially become a crypto holder where savings have good appreciation potential away from usd inflation'. akin to accepting online payments during the early web 2.0 days. Exxpanding payment methods = more customers.

    6) We should keep an eye on other existing mmo's that might set a good example we can learn from. re existing project best practise integration. Of course if any projects lean in this direction and do it SENSIBLY AND WELL.

    7) Somehow, some way... there's a sensible yet difficult path to prosperity through a seemingly obsurd situation where players generate value through 'playing'. In any event this is ever realised, an additional beneficiary could be considered like 'a portion of secondary market sales benefits X charity or goes toward some current world science funding need. re: beneficiary/charity in the NFT space see my favorite implementation at the moment "https://www.dropbears.io/charity "2% of all secondary sales will continually go towards helping the Koala species."

    8) Funnily enough I replied to richard via twitter I believe a long time ago that it would be cool if players by playing somehow contributed to science, or activities in the game did somehow. Not hugley feasable not designing from the ground up with consideration, but in another decade this stuff could be a bit more normal. Hey @Winston how about fishing in game has some real world kickback to help fish species? Sound crazy? I did too not that long ago lol

    9) There is much to learn and consider. Hopefully, there are some interesting thoughts for people to consider on these topics... for what its worth ;)

    10) Viva la Novia!
     
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  15. oplek

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    Hey! It looks like not all the Shroud of the Avatar devs are opposed to NFTs!

     
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  16. Burzmali

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  17. Dinsoo

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  18. Burzmali

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    Hold up, the largest "pay2earn" game out there just had over half a billion stolen from them and the value of their tokens went up. The power of the koolaid can overcome reality in the NFT world and I've seen plenty of cups being passed around in these parts.
     
  19. Scanphor

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    Combination of NFTs and LB, pretty much guaranteed lol
     
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  20. Ancev

    Ancev Bug Hunter

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