The 30% theory

Good idea to just post a feature list of the game and determine according to that why it failed? Maybe it failed because it didn't provide the features listed and they weren't implemented properly. This leads us nowhere.

@Lord Dreamo
Cmon u get what I meant with that. Some people just need a little more immersion provided by the game. And this has been done way better in the past.

The PVE only RP crowd alone wont make a commercial successful game, unless they plan on spending the amount of $$ that has already been spent every year... wont happen.
We need all players in this world... but not going to happen currently as critics show. And this is a facts. Ignoring it will be the end of the game before it really started.
So lets work together here and stop pushing FFA FULL LOOT or CONSENT HUGBOX agenda.

 

I think more people are down for full-loot pvp in this game than some realize. Even though there are only a few backers always lobbying for it, it's also true there's only a few backers constantly lobbying AGAINST it. Just something to consider.

 

I for one don't support full loot PVP system as I have seen it at its worst. But I have friends who I know would.

Just some numbers: (I found it interesting after reading Katrina Bekers post)

891 views
61 reply's
69 votes
23 people taking part in this conversation (not counting me or the moderators)

Of the people that own SOTA:
1.5%% Viewed this thread
0.1% Voted
0.04% are taking part in this conversation

Other figures get to small to be bothered with.

The people against this idea it have the majorette at 0.08% of the game population with the people for sitting at 0.03% of the population and 1.39% didn't vote.
As Katrina Bekers pointed out even in other Poles the number of people that vote doesn't reach 1% of the player base.

Simply put the players participating in this vote is to small of a group in the bigger picture to judge. My point is the unless SOTA sends out a mass Pole all figures we gatherer are by default pointless. (That moment you relies your other post is attempting the same impossible feet....)

 

In my home country, I could almost certainly find a few people lobbying for mandatory medieval sword training for all women over 18 years, however I see absolutely no one lobbying against it. Can we therefore infer based on the lack of lobbying against, that it'd be a swell idea? Of course not. One doesn't usually lobby for something which is already established, unless the party lobbying for a change somehow poses a considerable and believable threat against established practices.

Generally speaking, all lobbying, including all kinds of "polling", that is based on loosely defined concepts (= concepts leaving huge amounts of room for equivocation) is mostly meaningless, for quite a few reasons, I mention only some of them. Firstly, there are tens if not hundreds of ways to implement a thing like, say, "full-loot pvp", some of which affect all modes and aspects of gameplay. So if I answer "yes" to a poll, which implementations do I support, which ones I am against? If I answer "No", does it mean that I oppose all of them? It always depends. Secondly, many people tend to just reply something despite having no real reasoned opinion, basically at random, for example just because they are curious about the results. There should always be at least one reasonable "empty opinion" choice (like "I couldn't care less", "I have no opinion", "I love ninja hug bunnies") in such polls for them to have any meaning. Thirdly, if the poll includes an "it can't hurt" (aka "let all the flowers bloom") clause, then it will almost certainly gather some supportive votes just because of it (for example, in this thread the "it can't hurt" clause is the reference to it being an "option").

 

You lost me somewhere... I wasn't talking about polls, I'm saying both groups for/against are almost always the same few people arguing with each other.

 

Also I get a feeling that you don't fully understand how opinion polls are set up irl...

 

Full open PvP with full loot "could" be good but it has a MAJOR flaw.

Knowing that flaw any developer will need to incorporate methods to prevent the flaw from rearing it's ugly head.

The problem is: "this PvP isn't full open and full loot" is the first thing some people look for to disqualify a game as good PvP.

Endless loop > wish for a format that will cannibalize itself > format change to prevend collapse > wish for full open PvP > rinse repeat.

We all have our first love in the MMO genre and will always be looking for that love in a new game.

I loved playing Asheron's Call but I can't play it for more than a day when I attempt to get back into it now. The game's design won't hold anyone any more. We've all out grown it.

 

It's possible I misunderstood you, but you did also state "I think more people are down for full-loot pvp in this game than some realize."

What I meant was (said it in the 1st paragraph, perhaps should have written more clearly) that one doesn't usually lobby for something which is already established. The corollary to this is that neither does one lobby against anything attempting to change that which is already established, unless it is seen as genuinely threating.

In other words, 99% of folks just couldn't care less, because they are basically content with the status quo, they see the proposals put out as having only marginal significance, not affecting their gameplay in any way,so they simply choose to spend their time someplace else. I believe the amount of opposition would be much larger should people perceive it as any kind of actual threat to their gameplay. The statistics presented above support this. So the scarcity of people actively lobbying against really tell us very little, if anything.

Also I also do not expect to see this changing, because as of now, there is the status quo (no full loot), at the other end of the scale there are proposals like this (as presented, unfeasible in one way or other), and in between is a large middle ground, which is a "no fly zone" and therefore mostly empty - basically the "pvp camp" will not be satisfied with anything less than fully open, totally non-consensual, full loot pvp solution. It's essentially a stalemate situation between two unyielding camps. This is just my own opinion based on my own perceptions, others may have different views.

Polls are relevant because despite being often perceived as "information gathering tools", they are actually mostly just a form of lobbying, employing various techniques of persuasion, some of which I tried to outline.

 

Could we stop talking about FFA Full Loot as this will never happen here and the game economy isn't designed for that.
Rather talk about how we make flagging for PVP useful. Flagging for PVP needs to be an advantage for the higher risk. Reward EXP for it or some Buff maybe.
Next Step put flagging into Lore. Like I mentioned in SWG you could be Rebel or Empire, Openly (Flagged for PVP) or Covert (Not attackable).
Beeing openly pro Virtue or Chaos *examples* makes you attackable etc...

Should be possible to make some sense out of it. The flagging doesn't fit right now and is far from being fun.

 

It provided (and continues to provide) exactly what's in that list among other features. The ONE thing they were adamant about was FFA full loot pvp. It was their flagship feature.

 

IMO the moral system is the best tool for any of this. Which is why we don't have anything more than flag on and flag off. No moral system, yet.

 

So........5000 pvpers is borderline dreamland. Why does a full loot, full pvp game have 7,565 backers and raised over 900k in 10 days of KS? Yea nobody likes my style of Pvp lol https://www.kickstarter.com/project...-elyria-epic-story-mmorpg-with-aging/comments

 

Just because people want something does not mean it will be successful... ponder that one for a while.

 

Yes just like sota

 

(There is still someone writing in this thread? )

Uhm, ok, so for you the number of backers into ten days of a kickstarter with a specific feature equals the number of players at launch of another game without that specific feature.

With logic like this, what else I can add?

You're right, I'm wrong.

Have fun.

 

thats all i wanted to hear thanks for being wrong

 

That a guess? Or a weak jab? No matter, we can't tell the future and jabbing at me will only make your sleepy.

Until there is a design that addresses new player retention full open PvP games will fizzle. Any game that has implemented a design to do such a thing subsequently is deemed not full open PvP. It's a catch 22.

There's always a solution but instead of looking for one it always turns into jabs.

 

I am not blaming the players for a bad game. I am blaming bad players ruining other people on any games whether they're bad or state of the arts. Having FFA full loot will make things worse.

Also I'm a bit confused here. Are you with or against FFA Full Loot? Because SWG wasn't FFA full loot and it would be a horribleg ame if it were. Imagine you are playing Star Wars Galaxies, you just recently extracted some resources from your harvesters and about to put them on the market in another planet. On your way to the space port, a group of players show up, lock you up, and kill you on sight. Loot everything you have and move away. The first few times it's probably exciting and feel immersion. The 3rd time and so on, the game isn't fun anymore.

Although, I do agree with you that PVP in SWG was a lot fun (at least before whatever they change after the Jedi grinding fest anyway). I did had some good fights every other day at Anchorhead just simply going into the town flagged as Imperial dancing around until some Rebels showed up and started fighting, then more people showed up and joined the fun. I did not need any rewards to enjoy PVP beside having a good PVP fight. Should the game be full loot, I would not be able to recoup and continue the fight after 3rd or 4th death consider how far it is to go from any Imperial based town to Anchorhead.

Anyway, the point of this thread is to discuss whether there should be FFA Full loot or not, so I'm not gonna go beyond that on this thread. Yes, there are still plenty of works to do and may things to address to make the game fun. That I do agree with you. I think we want the same thing in the end.

 

I am voting for a middle ground here. In SWG PVP made sense and was fun for me. Their flagging system made sense. Sota tries to solve everything with maps that have a certain theme afaik. Sorry but that has nothing to do with the former Origin "We create Worlds" Ultima series I loved. FFA Full Loot does not solve that, neither does a consent system where all player interaction is meaningless.

Yes I think we can find a compromise for most players to create a virtual world we all "live" in, rather than a bunch of meaningless mini games or instances.

 

Why would people want full loot PvP?
It made sense in UO when you dropped everything on death and had to loot your own corpse to get your gear back.
It made some sense in Asherons Call, when you dropped some items on death and the higher level you were the more you dropped..
But in this game where you drop nothing on death, and has already been upped to include a tiny token ransom reward for PvP'ers.

It is almost like PvP'ers want to kill off what little PvP there is left in the game.
It's not good enough that I pwn, I must be able to take all their gear too, that way when I zone spawn camp, I know for sure, they won't be able to compete until they leave the zone and bring me more gear rewards for spawn killing them again.

First off PvP will only ever be niche in this game.
The rewards for abusing the systems are way too high already, and every time any one even slightly curious about PvP gives it a try, they will come to the sharp hard reality it is not for them.
You can level like crazy, think your doing pretty good with 400 health custom armor, custom weapons, GM or nearly GM combat skills
Then find out your still in insta kill range of "PvP grinders" and will be dead before you can finish loading into a Shardfall zone.
How is that for a "first impression?"
A few random people will see that as a challenge and dedicate the next month or two of their life to getting into competitive range.
Finding the correct leveling exploits and abusing them.
Rebuilding all their Gear and skills to exactly the right cookie cutter builds.
Scouring the internet to find what macro's and bots can help them.
The vast majority of people are more of the "ouch that hurts, lets not do that again" variety.