The "no need of bad crafters" issue

I would like to see the time required for crafting increased some, but if it is raised to much it would be counter productive.

 

If you by counter-productive you mean that it would make you have to pick and choose what you do during a play session, I disagree.

The problem with most MMOs is that they let us do almost everything almost all at once. We should have to make a choice. Spend an hour crafting or spend it adventuring. The more we can do at one time, and the faster we can do it, the sooner we manage to blow through everything the game has to offer, leaving us scratching our heads and asking no-one in particular, "What now?"

Only those most dedicated to crafting would be willing to put in the time to craft the best stuff. Those who want to dabble in it would be able to craft GOOD stuff, as in stuff that is useful for its intended purpose, but not of the best possible quality.

A sword made from the best quality materials capable of dealing the most damage and having the most durability should take a while to make. I'd like to see smithing include elements like needing to heat the metal to the point of malleability, knowing how many strikes with the smithing hammer are needed to shape to the desirable object, and the need to quench it in the right liquid. Failure would not necessarily mean loss of materials, but rather a need to start the process over again until it is done right. Each action would be actively performed by the player. So while it would take time, it wouldn't be about sitting there watching a status bar fill up while the character simply goes through a series of animations.

Of course, we live in the age of instant gratification. So a game that required that sort of involvement would be very much a niche game.

 

One of the big problems with deciding this revolves around the fact that we don't know the answer to the following questions:

How much gold can be made/hour of play? How much ore can be mined? How much leather harvested? Etc...
How many/what kind of gold sinks will exist in game(player housing is one, but are there others)?
Will there be a semblance of balance between weapons or armor? In UO, plate was inherently better than leather. Will leather have its own advantages?

These kinds of questions need to be asked before we determine how long things should take and how much they should cost.

 

What I meant by counter productive is kind of what Evil hinted at. If a person can go and walk around killing random things and make or gather the equivalent of 10 hours worth of crafting in 1 hour, then anyone that has limited time in playing would do that. I am all for crafting taking more time then UO or WoW however I think it needs to be balanced. If it requires to much to few people will do it prices will go through the roof. To quick and there is no economy because everyone will just do it themselves. If it is to repetitive, then you get into the scripting macro environment that became UO crafting. There is a fine balance, it will be hard to find it, and even harder to maintain it.

 

Grandmasters of any trade should still only have a certain % chance of making a top class item.
The price of the best items usually rises as the game goes on. the same GM sword in week 2 will sell for a lot less than it will in week 10.
Once you are playing and see how fast gold is made you will not be charging 10k in week 2 if you know the average player as only about 5k.
I would look around opposing vendors and see their prices then go below them to secure the sale
Of course their are always those that will hope to rip off NEW players with Inflated prices.
All the Avatars are real people and we know from our own RL theirs a lot that will rip you off given the chance.

Maybe the Town can set a Max price for an item and we all have to compete under it.

 

Let me also add to this:

- Simple items should help low-level crafters to build skill but high level crafters should not get any xp for them
- High level crafters could be encouraged to not use their resources for low level items as it could be made both xp and gold inefficient for them (low level crafters would do it mainly for the xp)

Another important aspect:
- Monster and dungeon loot should not be a replacement for crafted items. Let monsters drop other useful things.

 

The best way to reinforce the economy is to make sure that weapons and armor are subject to wear and tear through use, and to make sure that no gear dropped by mobs is EVER better than what a player can craft. oh, and making sure that every craftable item has an actual purpose

 

Not sure how closely you have been following the game and Dev Chats. But they are planning on having a cycle. That is to say every item that is sold to a vendor is going to end up in a pool to be redistributed as possible loot in the game. This is the same for items that are lost if a player dies and loses some gear.

 

Thank you for pointing this out.
Quite frankly put: Unless there is a real shortage of raw materials and an incentive to destroy crafted items for the materials I think this is a bad idea. Without such an incentive the point will be reached where no one has to buy certain items from crafters anymore which will make the crafters sell to NPC's which will bring the items back as loot, and so on. Let's hope they have a good idea how to take the surplus low level items out of the economy

 

Which comes full circle around to ways to increase in skill without making a billion low-level items to sell to an NPC...

 

There will be an incentive to destroy crafted items.

An example that I believe Lord British gave (may of been someone else). (and this is my rendition of it will not be exact to theirs)

A crafter wants to make a really good dagger. So he starts of by making about 10 basic daggers. They are all "Flimsy Daggers." The crafter then gathers 2 coal ore and a steel ingot for each dagger and tries to make them better, in turn he destroys 2, and is left with 8 "Daggers." Still not happy he gathers another 2 coal ore and 1 steel ingot for each, and works on them again, this time he destroys 2 more, leaving him with 6 "Sturdy Daggers." Still not happy he repeats the process another 2 times and ends up destroying all but 1, which has become a "Superb Dagger."

 

I figure that they will be handling it the same way they'll be handling the housing market when all available lots have been snatched up. When the next chapter comes out, and entirely new series of craftable gear at all stages of that chapter's story arc, thus beginning the process again... The surplus of low-level crafted gear will be bought cheap by newcomers to the game and it will balance out once they've completed chapter one and move into chapter 2 where the market will be normalized with the new gear...

 

I liked how Star Wars Galaxies handled the grinding out useless items to be able to learn to craft useful ones. What they did was give you the option to practice rather than craft a final produce. The materials needed to craft the item were consumed, but no item was produced. You gained crafting experience. I can only imagine how crowded the database would have been without that jewel of a feature...

Of course the process described here works as well...

 

And to continue with that post each level that the item is raised the harder it is not to break the item. But I believe they did say that as your skill increase so does the chance of success on increasing the level of an item.

So your wish of "lower end" items being crafted by lower end crafters is still really possible, because the high end crafters might not want to deal with the bottom 5 level of an item, and at the same time the low end crafters dont want to risk going any higher then that level.

 

As this is not a levelling game The swords will be something like a novice, journeyman, artisan etc weapon so will depend on your skill points in using it. I expect similar to UO it will be the type of metal/wood that decides if you can use them. Higher skill level ore/wood made only higher level weapons

 

The skills are based off of points, that has been said when they discussed there being separate point pools for crafting and combat.

However as to the limiting factor not gonna try to even guess at because I don't know.

 

My idea for resolving the OP's dilemma is making the gap in tiers not of quality but of scope.

Repairing: One way that can make GM-level smiths obviously superior while still keeping low-tier smiths relevant is delineating how badly damaged an item can be and still be saved. This way, people can go to low-tier smiths for routine maintenance, and those whose armour and weapons are on their last legs will still need high-tier smiths to save their equipment. After all, un-denting a breastplate involves simpler techniques than fixing a puncture.

Self-Employment: Yes, quality should improve with skill, but the difference between high and medium quality should not be extreme. Instead, a high-tier smith should be able to customize its look much more broadly than can lower-tier ones. This way, mid-level smiths can still make and sell high-quality goods, and the masters get the prestige of high-paying, custom commissions.

 

I like this idea. Even the medieval Japanese master swordsmiths could not produce top quality katanas *all* the time.

 

About GM status - by definition, a Grand Master is someone who has taught students that have become masters in their own right. It would be cool if we could use this to encourage player-to-player instruction (as has been mentioned). Something extra you can gain through instructing others. Just a thought.

 

That would be cool. I would also like the idea of there being certain things you can only do after you have taught others, or give a chance to help you gain. Like after giving instruction you are more attentive for your own errors and either gain faster or have slightly better chance to succeed.